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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 18:42:07 GMT -8
Hey ya'll. Barrett here, from Oklahoma. I'm the one who inflicted JiB upon you. Apologies. Regarding Narratives, from S7E3, I have a bit of an issue. I am the GM of a pretty big group (8 players) playing Pathfinder. Specifically, I'm running the Jade Regent adventure path, and don't have a whole lot of time to generate new content. Being Pathfinder, we are very minis-heavy.. In fact, they really are kind of a pain. We have a big table and they're half way across it. Hard for everyone to see, and harder still to manage maps. The one thing I definitely could see us improving on is having the players tell me *what* they are doing cinematically rather than "AC24, 7 points of damage". However, they're fairly set in their ways, having gamed together for years before I came along. I've begun to change how *I* describe combat, and I've already added hero points to the campaign, and have given away hero points for particularly good RP or cinematicness, but it hasn't really taken. So do I just come out and talk about it? Soft sell it? How would you suggest I change their behavior? Thanks in advance. Barrett
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jan 30, 2012 19:59:50 GMT -8
So, I have you to blame for hearing "Use Savage Worlds" as the answer to every gaming question now asked on the podcast. Curse you!
I kid.
Anyway, I had a similar experience with D&D 4e; after playing in a year and a half long campaign I got terminally sick of the battle grid, using minis, and 3 hour long, math heavy combats. It felt like I was playing a board game and all the excitement got sucked right out of combat since some of the other players would sit there for half an hour (no joke) counting out squares, choosing Power Cards, taking back moves, and other such nonsense. The end of the campaign was a big boss fight that was supposed to be tense and dramatic, but by that point I didn't care. 4e combat had killed just about all my interest in the storyline.
So when it was my turn to GM something after that campaign ended, I made it a point to run something fast and exciting (no, it wasn't Savage Worlds, JiB), and was determined to NOT use minis or a battle mat of any kind. I figured that if I could take away the physical props and run combat entirely in head, that the players would be more inclined to do exciting and heroic things with their characters. It worked for the more experienced and RP focused players. The first combat we ran, one guy did a flying leap across a bar to body tackle a Nazi officer. During combat on an airship, characters were running around, taking cover behind stuff, and narrating actions much more than they had in the D&D game. I needed to sketch an occasional map or two just so everyone had an idea of where things were, but I threw them away as soon as they got used so that people didn't try to draw out their moves on them. The one guy who just shows up to roll dice and hang out didn't do much, but I don't think you can really change players like that.
It can be really tough to balance narrative and tactical combat, especially with players who have made characters specifically to use certain mechanics. If someone can move an extra 20' when making a charge for example, you've got to make sure they feel like you're not robbing them of that extra movement in free-form combat scenes. So, my advice would be to take a break from Pathfinder and run a session of something completely in head. No maps, no minis, no crutches. If your players are really against playing something else even for a single session, run Pathfinder but run a flashback scene. Or a dream sequence. Something that allows them to use their characters but that won't affect the main story, which will hopefully encourage them to "let loose" a bit. Hope this helps somewhat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 7:54:56 GMT -8
If the group don't mind house rules, which it sounds like they don't, since you use Hero Points (yes, it's in the book, but it's a house rule from the book), maybe take a cue from Exalted and give a +1 or +2 strike bonus for good descriptive attacks. Or, use critical charts (or Paizo's critical deck) that differentiate between cuts, stabs, and blunt attacks, that way they have to say what they're doing with their weapon rather than just that they're using it. It's a little thing, but a start to maybe bigger house rules that incorperate more cinematic style.
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highroad
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Post by highroad on Jan 31, 2012 14:31:04 GMT -8
One thing that I did when I ran a D&D 4e game for a table of mostly inexperienced roleplayers was the addition of a house rule I dubbed "the cinematic chip." In each four hour session each player received a single cinematic chip, I used poker chips. The player could then turn in that chip at some point during the session to execute a "cinematic." Cinematics usually involved over-the-top combat maneuvers which completely broke the rules of D&D. Players were required to narrate what they hoped to accomplish and then I'd usually give them a series of two or three checks to make (which i eventually determined to be unnecessary) and then once they made the check then that would happen.
Some memorable cinematic moments were the halfling rogue leaping up onto a series of bookcases and hurling several throwing knives while leaping from case to case. Another one was the cleric using his Divine Guardian sort of like a Mecha and demolishing several foes.
The cinematic helped the players to take a moment to be center stage, and had the added benefit of speeding up combat since usually the cinematic would knock out one or two enemies in the process.
Just a little trick that I used to bring people out of the "24 AC 7 points of damage" doldrums.
I also think that RPG combat, and especially 4e and even Pathfinder, needs to find a way to be more mobile and less "get into base-to-base contact and start wailing on one another." All of the greatest fight sequences from famous movies involve a lot of mobility, and back and forth, something that I find to be lacking in the D&D universe. I'm not proposing a solution, just pointing out a need.
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joegun
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Post by joegun on Jan 31, 2012 15:08:13 GMT -8
---How would you suggest I change their behavior?---
I had a similar problem with my group once they got the gist of the system. I solved it similar to something JIB said. "You don't roll Dice until I tell you too..." Also if they give me good descriptions of what they are doing, pass or fail they get a benny ( Savage Worlds of course....Sorry Hivemind!). This basically rewards them for doing what I want ( yes railroady in a meta sort of way ), and for the most part it has worked quite well.
The only issue I had was with an online game I had where all the other players were very deep into RP with EVERYTHING: combat, dramatic tasks, shopping, PC to PC chit chat. But one player made a face PC, and would do nothing but roll Persuasion. He would never try and talk it out. He protested if I gave him negatives, so instead I started everyone as HOSTILE on the reaction table, and his rolls would modify the perception from there....Not sure if he ever figured out why everyone was so damn hard to Persuade!
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jan 31, 2012 19:22:39 GMT -8
Do you have any guesses about why your group is resistant to describing moves, even when bribed with hero points? Are they afraid of looking like idiots if they describe stuff, or do they just really love the crunch? Or something else?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 19:56:15 GMT -8
Do you have any guesses about why your group is resistant to describing moves, even when bribed with hero points? Are they afraid of looking like idiots if they describe stuff, or do they just really love the crunch? Or something else? I think about half the group is obsessed with crunch. I think I've just not made my opinion clear. I'm thinking of just having a frank discussion on the matter.. "OK, guys, I'm happy running, but I'd like there to be more roleplaying and less rollplaying. At the very least, let's have you elucidate what you are going to do vividly before you roll. What do ya think?" Because maybe they're all happy? I ran half the group in SW and at least 3 of them figured out if they stayed in character, were clever, cinematic or even made me laugh, it was benny city.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 1, 2012 2:56:41 GMT -8
Also if they give me good descriptions of what they are doing, pass or fail they get a benny ( Savage Worlds of course....Sorry Hivemind!). Gah! You named That Which Is Not To Be Named! My eyes are bleeding! OK. Enough dramatics. My DM in the D&D 4e game tried something similar to the Hero Points that taley suggested, though he didn't use actual points. If we described something cool that our character was doing (usually as part of an attack, but not always) he would give us a small bonus on our roll for that action. Like a +1 or a +2. It worked at first, but after a while we hit a wall so to speak. He would either forget to give us the bonus, or not give us the bonus when we thought we had earned one, leading to a few arguments. Or we would just kind of stop describing our actions because we couldn't think of what to say based on our class and the Power we were using at the time. I was playing an Invoker, and there are only so many ways you can describe a ray of light shooting forth from your staff to strike your foes before you run out of ideas. I also didn't want to do over the top, action movie type stunts with my PC either (he was an old dude, well past 50), which but me at a slight disadvantage. So that kind of fell by the wayside after a while. In Apocalypse World, D. Vincent Baker (the same guy who did Dogs in the Vineyard) has a really good line. I'll quote it here and hope I don't get into trouble for doing so. He says "The rule for moves is to do it, do it. In order for it to be a move and for the player to roll dice, the character has to do something that counts as that move." You could apply the same mentality to Pathfinder, even though they are different systems. Basically shortbus405, you as the GM could only allow the player to roll dice after they've described what their character is doing. No description means no roll. Simple as that. You could start off gentle and ask your players "So, tell me how you're doing that?" when they give a bland "I attack the Orc." Another think to look at is how long your combats are going on. If they're dragging on for three hours even creative payers are going to run out of steam and stop describing their actions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2012 10:47:37 GMT -8
We play a lot of games, and a lot of Pathfinder. When we're playing Pathfinder, even though there is story and RPing, everyone knows to bash the thing and get the xp. But the other game we play a lot of has this mechanic for skills, attribute checks, and saving throws where you roll D6s under a stat and the more D6s you roll the harder the task (oh, you drank poison? That could be a 3D6 for weak poison or 8D6 for very lethal poison). At the end of every game session you make a roll to see if you level-up. On the back of the character sheet is your Diary of a Hero and with each entry that's one less D6 to roll against the Psyche stat. So, the players know that to level you don't just bash the monster and get the xp, rather you have to do something cool and creative (in combat or out) to get an entry on your diary. Same group, different games, different styles of play.
Shortbus405, I think you're trying to overcome a system issue. Pathfinder (and D&D) is designed to 'kill things and loot them'. You have to really change the game to change the style of play, or except it for what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2012 16:57:09 GMT -8
Shortbus405, I think you're trying to overcome a system issue. Pathfinder (and D&D) is designed to 'kill things and loot them'. You have to really change the game to change the style of play, or except it for what it is. A very good point. I think between the group size and the game itself, this may be the case. We seemed to be more RP-heavy in Savage Worlds, on account of both a smaller party, and less rules to futz with. Thanks, everyone. The group is very conscious - I think I'll ask them how they feel and if they want to change at all. If not, so be it. B
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 1, 2012 19:06:39 GMT -8
Yeah, I'll echo taley's comment about the system being a big cause of this issue. I've found that hit points and 4e style Powers can really kill the creativity and fun of a game. In one 4e combat we played a giant rock elemental burst from the ground in front of us, knocked the wizard into a building with it's giant fist, grabbed the Halfling thief, and used him as a club to beat my PC with. It sounded truly epic.
Until the wizard stood up from the ruined building, the thief squeezed out of it's grasp and jumped nimbly to the ground, and my PC jumped back to his feet on the very next round. The only thing that happened to us was the loss of some hit points. It at that moment that I was done with 4e and games with increasing hit points.
I'm not saying I wanted our PCs to die, but when a big-ass, two story rock elemental smashes a wizard into a freaking house there should be some consequences.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Feb 2, 2012 17:23:41 GMT -8
Shortbus405, I think you're trying to overcome a system issue. Pathfinder (and D&D) is designed to 'kill things and loot them'. You have to really change the game to change the style of play, or except it for what it is. Just because Pathfinder/D&D doesn't force or require the players to play descriptively doesn't mean that anything about the system is unsuitable for descriptive play. You seem to be suggesting that trying to add descriptiveness is fighting against the very nature of the game (and implying that such an effort is thus doomed to failure). With all due respect, I really don't believe that's the case.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2012 17:52:12 GMT -8
Sorry. I didn't mean it was void of narrative combat. I just meant the rules don't favor it. Unless there are feats that I don't know about that give bonus for narrative or something.
The original poster sounds like his group doesn't favor it either.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 3, 2012 7:27:44 GMT -8
Shortbus405, I think you're trying to overcome a system issue. Pathfinder (and D&D) is designed to 'kill things and loot them'. You have to really change the game to change the style of play, or except it for what it is. A very good point. I think between the group size and the game itself, this may be the case. We seemed to be more RP-heavy in Savage Worlds, on account of both a smaller party, and less rules to futz with. Thanks, everyone. The group is very conscious - I think I'll ask them how they feel and if they want to change at all. If not, so be it. B I think that's a good idea, having an open and honest discussion about what the group as a whole WANTS out of the game is usually productive. It is possible that a split in the group will form, but in all candor that split was probably going to form anyway and it doesn't mean that things are a disaster it's just something to be aware of. It might be that half the group is all over the idea of more role play and the other half is wanting more crunch. As the gm you're in a position to satisfy them both by letting things sort of flow back and forth. You can write elements in the game to appeal to each camp in turn and most likely they'll both be happy and willing to go with it. Just in regards to combats you can make some combats that are more running flowing narrative sorts of things (I'm thinking of the fight scene with the guards behind the abbey in the Disney Three Muskateers movie (The one with Oliver Platt, Keifer Sutherland and Charlie Sheen not the more recent one). and you can have other fights that are more tactical crunchy sorts of fights. To do that (and this is what I'm going to do with the fights in my games at OrcCon) if I want a more narrative flow I'm going to just narrate the fight without drawing the map but if I want to give them a more tactical feel out comes the map and the minis. As always, just my 2 krupplenicks worth, your mileage may of course vary. JiB
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 9:59:33 GMT -8
Hi guys..
Update!
We had an open and honest conversation about the situation. They felt like hero points could fill the void, but any other solution was too advantageous to one kind of character type (e.g. free Spring Attack benefitted Rogues the most) or make combat drag on too much. (Which, with 8 players, is consciously a problem for both me and all the players)
So they began using hero points more, and I began giving them out more frequently. In addition, I began to get a little faster and looser with some of the rules.
For example, one character had climbed a wall and was 20' up. A frozen shadows ninja who had no more ranged weapons decided he wanted to use Ki Jump to attempt to grab the guy off the wall. With all of his benefits, his acrobatics check was 50. My rules lawyery players took certain object as they felt the DC was higher -- about 80, but I didn't care.. 50 is basically a god like check.. so I ruled that it just worked.. now he did almost no damage, and the player used Climb to grab the wall and not fall, so in the end, it was both epic and pretty fair.
All in all, I think the group not only appreciated having the conversation about narratives and combat, but also had more fun at the end of the night.
Mission accomplished!
Thanks, everyone!
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