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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 13:44:16 GMT -8
Hey, everyone.
I'm having a little bit of a problem going into a new game. A little background first:
I just moved back to an area I used to live in, and I've been trying to find a gaming group. I finally found some people, but they're already one session into their campaign. Based on the setting and story, the class options are limited to Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger and Bard. Of course, the first four being classes people actually like playing, they're all taken already. I've talked to the GM, and while he says that duplicating classes is perfectly fine by him, I have the sinking feeling that doing so would be bad. My hangup is that each class has a niche, mechanically, and two people trying to fill that same niche will prevent one of them from having a "time to shine," so to speak. For example, if there are two rogues in a group, one will inevitably be "rogue-ier" than the other, causing the less mechanically sound one to fade into the background.
Now, keep in mind, I don't necessarily mean in terms of RP. I'm speaking mechanically here, and even though I know that mechanics aren't the whole of a game, Pathfinder's class system generally supports a more mechanical focus on gameplay than some other games. I'd just like to avoid having a situation where I'm basically a redundant system for someone's character and never get a chance to use my mechanical benefits in any meaningful way.
So question 1 is this: Is there ever a way to make having two of the same class in a party workable?
Question 2 is a little different. The remaining two class choices play out something like this to me: Rangers are a worse version of Fighters who really wish they were Druids, but can't do either very well, and Bards are worse versions of Sorcerers who wish they were as good at buffing the party as Clerics. Either one still duplicates functionality, in a mechanical sense, and on top of that are so weak in other areas that they are effectively useless in the presence of the other "core" classes.
Question 2 becomes: Is there anything I can do with either of those two classes that will fit with the other four characters, but still fit into a necessary and unique place in the party?
The GM let me know that "the focus here is RP, but there will be not insignificant combat and mechanical dealings as well."
What do? Thanks, everyone.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Sept 4, 2013 15:48:59 GMT -8
So, I'm biased because I always choose bards, just because. I even got to play a bard mime once.
OK, that crap aside, I can't really answer your questions mechanically because I don't really know D&D / Pathfinder that deeply (only as a side-effect of playing D&D back in the day), but...
One option, especially if RP is a big part of this game, is to play a Bard that is a soldier that has a love of music, or singing... i.e. slant the character towards another class, stat him a bit that way, and then flesh out those skills so that they lean in a strength/dex direction (depending on weapon choice).
Or you could go as a Fighter, but work a different angle than the other guy. If he's a tank, do something a bit more range focused, or dex focused, like a musketeer type character. Make a bounty hunter.
Shit, just create a sorcerer who uses a different school of magic than the other guy... i mean there's probably a number of ways to go with just that one.
A rogue that is really a range and hide/sneak specializer (again bounty hunter could work), instead of a trap monkey. Or someone who used to be a spy, who's crazy diplomacy guy, etc. Up his Charisma, etc.
I.e. if you assume they've got their basic roles covered, you are in a sense off the hook here, and can lean in all sorts of directions. If you look at this in the right way, you've got A LOT more freedom then they did in creating their character.
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Post by moonday on Sept 4, 2013 17:12:58 GMT -8
I agree with Tomes. Talk with the GM and the other players. Find out what their characters are like, and just make your character specialize in something different. If their rogue is a stereotypical sneaky theif with trap disarming, be a backstabbing combative rogue with Combat Trick, Resiliency, or Weapon Training. If they have an upstanding and pious cleric, be a cleric who worships Cayden Cailean, the God of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery. You could have a lot of fun with that. There are so many options in each class, you could easily make your character unique. You don't have to worry about "who is the better rogue." Just make sure your character has different specialties. As for your second question, I like to play rangers. And no, I don't mean the dual scimitar wielding types. I like the ranger as an archer. The first couple of levels can be rough, but once you get the Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot feats, you're doing pretty good. Also, depending on the campaign, tracking skill bonuses and favored enemies can come in handy. It all boils down to what YOU want to play. If you want to be a rogue, be a rogue. I think the mechanics of the game will be just fine no matter what you decide to play.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 18:28:26 GMT -8
I agree with Tomes. Talk with the GM and the other players. Find out what their characters are like, and just make your character specialize in something different. If their rogue is a stereotypical sneaky theif with trap disarming, be a backstabbing combative rogue with Combat Trick, Resiliency, or Weapon Training. If they have an upstanding and pious cleric, be a cleric who worships Cayden Cailean, the God of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery. You could have a lot of fun with that. There are so many options in each class, you could easily make your character unique. You don't have to worry about "who is the better rogue." Just make sure your character has different specialties. As for your second question, I like to play rangers. And no, I don't mean the dual scimitar wielding types. I like the ranger as an archer. The first couple of levels can be rough, but once you get the Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot feats, you're doing pretty good. Also, depending on the campaign, tracking skill bonuses and favored enemies can come in handy. It all boils down to what YOU want to play. If you want to be a rogue, be a rogue. I think the mechanics of the game will be just fine no matter what you decide to play. Well, the number crunchy mechanics of the game aren't really the thing I'm worried about. If this were just a regular 4 character party, I could play whatever I needed to effectively, in terms of mechanics. I'm more worried about table dynamics, and how classes mechanically fill different roles. I really hate the idea of someone feeling like their character is being overshadowed, or having their niche forcibly filled by the new guy. I'm also not keen on building a character who gets forced into the background because he doesn't do anything particularly special. That's mostly why I'm hesitant to play a Bard -- their entire existence is essentially as a background support character who paradoxically is equipped in many ways to be the party face. I like to think that the best games allow everybody to have their time to shine, and since I'm not able to talk to the other players until the time we play (I only have contact with the GM at this point, and I've never met any of them), I can't exactly ask everybody what their character is built to do. RP, again, isn't any kind of problem...everyone can have their chance there...but in combats, or with non-combat skill usages, there could be problems if I double up and choose a build that someone else has already made. Is this common with 5th wheel players? It's the first time ever that I've joined a game that's already in progress.
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Post by moonday on Sept 5, 2013 2:22:55 GMT -8
While it all depends on the group of people you'll be joining, I'd think most people would be willing to cut you some slack. I'm assuming you're starting out at level one. There's a lot of room to grow your character from that point. If you double up on skills someone else has, next level, spend your skill points to go in a different direction. If you find you are overlapping too much with someone else, you could always ask your DM if he'd be ok with you tweaking your character a bit after the first game.
From what you've said, they are only one session into their campaign. At this point, most people are still feeling out their characters. I wouldn't stress over it too much.
If you are really worried about it, roll up a few characters of different classes. When you get there, tell the other players that you couldn't decide which character class would be best for the party and let them choose between your pre-made characters.
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 5, 2013 6:03:11 GMT -8
You could also look at it from a variant standpoint and step outside the class system. If the party right now is:
1. Typical fighter (Close fighter) 2. Typical cleric (healer + close fighter) 3. Typical rogue (sneaks in and back stabs) 4. Typical caster
You could (as an example) make a fighter who's an archer. Dex them up and give them the feats that make a bow a truly unpleasant weapon to have to fight against.
Just one possible way to look at it.
JiB
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 5, 2013 7:49:42 GMT -8
If the GM is worth his/her salt the game shouldn't be so rigid that just because there's an additional player shit goes pear shaped. This ain't World of Warcraft. I've had groups consisting of ALL fighters, ALL thieves, and a SUPER GROUP of all Bards...they were the Travelin' Ramblers and they kicked ass. However, because your jumping in with a new group and might want to have it go well, ask the group what they could use more of in their adventures so far..."We do great when we go toe to toe with foes, but at range we get pin cushioned...we seem to never be able to say the right thing in town or we don't know enough about X"
The great thing about Pathfinder as my illustrious colleagues have stated above, is it has incredible flexibility and versatility. The classes seem to exist as a background allowing you to beg and steal from each one to create more specifically what your looking for in a character.
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 5, 2013 11:35:04 GMT -8
If the GM is worth his/her salt the game shouldn't be so rigid that just because there's an additional player shit goes pear shaped. This ain't World of Warcraft. I've had groups consisting of ALL fighters, ALL thieves, and a SUPER GROUP of all Bards...they were the Travelin' Ramblers and they kicked ass. However, because your jumping in with a new group and might want to have it go well, ask the group what they could use more of in their adventures so far..."We do great when we go toe to toe with foes, but at range we get pin cushioned...we seem to never be able to say the right thing in town or we don't know enough about X" The great thing about Pathfinder as my illustrious colleagues have stated above, is it has incredible flexibility and versatility. The classes seem to exist as a background allowing you to beg and steal from each one to create more specifically what your looking for in a character. Colleagues? We have colleagues? Cool ... oh wait ... DT put those calipers down right now!!! JiB
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 19:18:08 GMT -8
While it all depends on the group of people you'll be joining, I'd think most people would be willing to cut you some slack. I'm assuming you're starting out at level one. There's a lot of room to grow your character from that point. If you double up on skills someone else has, next level, spend your skill points to go in a different direction. If you find you are overlapping too much with someone else, you could always ask your DM if he'd be ok with you tweaking your character a bit after the first game. From what you've said, they are only one session into their campaign. At this point, most people are still feeling out their characters. I wouldn't stress over it too much. If you are really worried about it, roll up a few characters of different classes. When you get there, tell the other players that you couldn't decide which character class would be best for the party and let them choose between your pre-made characters. Well, we're starting from level 3, so you aren't really all that far off, but it's far enough in that character classes have likely started down a path toward some end (ex: The Cleric has chosen being a tank over being a party healer, the Sorcerer has gone damage instead of utility spells, Fighter picked THF, etc). I've since asked the GM for more information, but as of yet, no response has been given I don't know why it didn't occur to me to roll up multiple characters and bring them all in for evaluation at my first session. I had sort of resigned myself to playing a Ranger, since it seemed the closest to my usual standby, the druid (I just love that wilderness animal hippie flavor text), but now I'm not so sure. I'm also trying really hard not to be the munchkin at the table, but everyone knows that seeing big numbers in the "attack bonus" space is just...so satisfying. I guess I'm mostly just this worried because this is the first game I've ever played with people I wasn't already friends with. First impressions count for a lot, in tabletop as much as anywhere else.
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Post by moonday on Sept 6, 2013 1:23:45 GMT -8
Every game I've played in since I've gotten back into gaming has been with strangers (my one attempt to bring some friends into the hobby was disastrous), so I understand how you feel. You want to do everything in your power to make sure things go well. I think you've done that. Now just go to the game and have a good time.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 6, 2013 2:11:04 GMT -8
If the GM is worth his/her salt the game shouldn't be so rigid that just because there's an additional player shit goes pear shaped. This ain't World of Warcraft. I've had groups consisting of ALL fighters, ALL thieves, and a SUPER GROUP of all Bards...they were the Travelin' Ramblers and they kicked ass. However, because your jumping in with a new group and might want to have it go well, ask the group what they could use more of in their adventures so far..."We do great when we go toe to toe with foes, but at range we get pin cushioned...we seem to never be able to say the right thing in town or we don't know enough about X" The great thing about Pathfinder as my illustrious colleagues have stated above, is it has incredible flexibility and versatility. The classes seem to exist as a background allowing you to beg and steal from each one to create more specifically what your looking for in a character. Colleagues? We have colleagues? Cool ... oh wait ... DT put those calipers down right now!!! Jib NOT LIKE THIS!!
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jpk
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Post by jpk on Sept 8, 2013 7:22:05 GMT -8
As has been mentioned, there's a lot of space in a class for variation. One of our best campaigns for 3.5 was one we came to call Three Rogues and a Necromancer. That's what the party was, but all three rogues were entirely different. I was a diplomacy and social guy, one was a master burglar, and the third was traps and tricks sort of expert (who like to accidentally shoot himself with his apparently loaded "all ones" dice).
If it worries you that much, though, just observe the first game and make something to fit. Or "finish up" while they're going through the first half of the game and be ready to go after the ubiquitous pizza break.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Sept 8, 2013 18:52:56 GMT -8
Not to beat a dead horse, but... *thwack!* There are SO MANY ways to run each class. Rogue is by far the MOST versatile as far as I'm concerned. I assume the party's rogue is going standard Perception/Disable Device/Stealth/Steal shit/whatever? Then go total sweet talker con man. Crack out your charisma and diplomacy and bluff and all those things. The rogue I'm playing now, up until the moment his brother talked him into going on this little job... had never "adventured" in his life. He is a con man through and through. High charisma for wooing his target audience... rich older women. Disguise so he can keep working in the same town a bit longer. Escape Artist so he can get away when the going gets tough. Diplomacy and Bluff to get his way into their pants and out of *ahem* tight spots. His combat skills SUCK. He is all about putting on his next con. Period. Then there's the Swashbuckler rogue that feints(with a bluff check) and basically gets to get his backstab like... a lot. Get improved feint and get that sneak attack damage even more often. You have the Thug rogue who intimidates the pants off of people. Just saying you have a ton of options. That being said though, I LOVE RANGERS AND BARDS! WTF man, play one of those!
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 9, 2013 9:46:14 GMT -8
Not to beat a dead horse, but... *thwack!* There are SO MANY ways to run each class. Rogue is by far the MOST versatile as far as I'm concerned. I assume the party's rogue is going standard Perception/Disable Device/Stealth/Steal shit/whatever? Then go total sweet talker con man. Crack out your charisma and diplomacy and bluff and all those things. The rogue I'm playing now, up until the moment his brother talked him into going on this little job... had never "adventured" in his life. He is a con man through and through. High charisma for wooing his target audience... rich older women. Disguise so he can keep working in the same town a bit longer. Escape Artist so he can get away when the going gets tough. Diplomacy and Bluff to get his way into their pants and out of *ahem* tight spots. His combat skills SUCK. He is all about putting on his next con. Period. Then there's the Swashbuckler rogue that feints(with a bluff check) and basically gets to get his backstab like... a lot. Get improved feint and get that sneak attack damage even more often. You have the Thug rogue who intimidates the pants off of people. Just saying you have a ton of options. That being said though, I LOVE RANGERS AND BARDS! WTF man, play one of those! This was often the kick in the head we encountered trying to get into 4e. The idea you might play a character with shitty combat skills seemed to break the rules or not even really be obtainable with them. Everything in that system seemed to be built around the idea that eventually, somehow, somewhere you were going to have to go out and kick ass and do it beautifully. My Pathfinder wizard doesn't possess a single offensive spell. Its just not the game we wanted to play this time...But if everyone at the table is going on about party balance, min/maxing, etc. It can be a bit tough to figure out what sort of uber-character to create. I've recently learned that there is in fact a gaming group here in this sleepy, seaside town playing Pathfinder. However, the Pathfinder they play seems devoted to finding out how what the extremes of Pathfinder powers and abilities are and get there as soon as possible. There games sound like several dudes sitting around designing rockets..."Calculate the X, Y, Z multiplied by 4, +22 , +5d6..." *snore* But again if this is the game being played and you want to play it, go for it. I think it might have been Arcona that had some great ways to really excel at creating really effective Pathfinder characters. I don't fault people for optimizing their characters. Its just not why I play RPGs.
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Post by moonday on Sept 13, 2013 16:14:32 GMT -8
So @sambeastie, how did it go? What did you end up doing?
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