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TPKs
Oct 21, 2014 7:26:03 GMT -8
Post by kaitoujuliet on Oct 21, 2014 7:26:03 GMT -8
Inspired by my own recent experience, I'd be interested in hearing what the hosts (and board members) think about TPKs.
Any good stories of past TPKs that you either GM'd or experienced from the players' side?
For you, does a TPK usually enhance a game's story (by giving it unexpected twists/highlighting the dangerousness of some encounters) or detract from it (by leaving character arcs unresolved)?
What do you do as a GM when a TPK happens, or seems about to happen?
What do you think of games where PCs can't die unless the players agree to it?
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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TPKs
Oct 21, 2014 7:58:08 GMT -8
Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 21, 2014 7:58:08 GMT -8
There seems to be a difficulty in a story arc continuing after a TPK. Not always I understand that. But if the players have spent a vast amount of time creating and getting attached to their characters stories and then you as GM create an encounter that suddenly goes horribly south (unplanned) I think its your job to figure out a plausible way to avert a TPK that doesn't reek of deus ex machina. Jackercon III was sarcastically titled TPK Goodness! because their was time that as a GM (when I was 15) that I often strived for that. The message that I have kept from those dark days of GM assholery is that character death is often in fact a good thing just not all of 'em at once.
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TPKs
Oct 21, 2014 16:51:58 GMT -8
Post by lowkeyoh on Oct 21, 2014 16:51:58 GMT -8
But if the players have spent a vast amount of time creating and getting attached to their characters stories and then you as GM create an encounter that suddenly goes horribly south (unplanned) I think its your job to figure out a plausible way to avert a TPK that doesn't reek of deus ex machina. I completely disagree. Just because players are invested in their story doesn't give them plot armor. I'm really invested in living, and I might get hit by a bus tomorrow. There are ways around a TPK. "The Orcs take you prisoners and treat your wounds" "Enemies run away at the last second." "Enemies proclaim their dominance and send one back alive to proclaim their superiority" But in my opinion, if the players bite off more than they can chew, that's on them, not on me. Running away is always an option. If it's 5v8 and three players die turning the tides to 2v8, it's up to those two to run the fuck away, it's not up to me to find a way for the eight to let them live. As for what to do following a TPK, that really depends on your narrative and how it's structured. I'm a HUGE fan of a Lord/Servent power structure, with the players taking the roles of Agents of a more politically powerful master. Daimyo/Samurai or Duke/Knights or Thieves Guild Master/Thieves etc etc. I'm currently running a game where the players were Knights of a Duke. Some died and now random travelers are helping out the knights trying to get to the bottom of the dastardly plot. This has been awesome because now the knights have connections to other factions they didn't originally have though player characters. People die one by one? You can create whatever character you want. Everyone dies all at once? You're all back to being knights for the Duke. All the information they accrue though their investigations usually makes it way back to their boss, so information about the dastardly plot is not lost, and now you have PCs eager to avenge their fallen comrades. That's just my take on TPKs, however. I don't run 'you meet in a tavern and go off adventuring in the wilderness' games so I have no idea how you would continue after a TPK there.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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TPKs
Oct 22, 2014 7:57:33 GMT -8
Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 22, 2014 7:57:33 GMT -8
But if the players have spent a vast amount of time creating and getting attached to their characters stories and then you as GM create an encounter that suddenly goes horribly south (unplanned) I think its your job to figure out a plausible way to avert a TPK that doesn't reek of deus ex machina. I completely disagree. Just because players are invested in their story doesn't give them plot armor. I'm really invested in living, and I might get hit by a bus tomorrow. No, I'm not saying ALL TPKs should be avoided but I have certainly at one time or another thought I was creating an interesting, DRAMATIC encounter and instead horribly misjudged the effects of various mechanics in a combat. There are just so many variables with mechanics heavy games like Pathfinder, that even trying to use CR ratings as guidelines suddenly what was supposed to be an interesting moment turns into PC slaughter time so quickly that they don't see it coming. That seems a bit unfair. Having said that I love games with exploding dice mechanics. L5R mighty samurais can be brought down by one lucky peasant with a spear. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay once saw my prized character of two years get his head cut off by a stupid goblin with a rusty knife. Just got really lucky rolling a d6...6 after 6 after 6. TPKs in our savage worlds games are often the norm. There are just situations when we as GMs have to realize that we weren't being unbiased when we created the encounter...why suddenly develop a sense of conscious and say "Well this dragon would just want to kill and eat all of you...so here we go." Especially if that just doesn't really serve the storyline in any way.
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cithaeron99
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 5
Preferred Game Systems: Night's Black Agents, Danger Patrol, Dungeon World
Currently Playing: Dungeon World, Night's Black Agents
Currently Running: Danger Patrol.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Capuchin
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TPKs
Oct 22, 2014 18:25:46 GMT -8
Post by cithaeron99 on Oct 22, 2014 18:25:46 GMT -8
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TPKs
Oct 22, 2014 19:04:12 GMT -8
Post by kaitoujuliet on Oct 22, 2014 19:04:12 GMT -8
This, of course, invites the question, "What constitutes doing it right?"
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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TPKs
Oct 22, 2014 20:50:05 GMT -8
Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 22, 2014 20:50:05 GMT -8
There shall be cheering...or crying...or BOTH!
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TPKs
Oct 28, 2014 6:28:44 GMT -8
Post by kaitoujuliet on Oct 28, 2014 6:28:44 GMT -8
For the record, as I mentioned here, I gave my players a do-over in the case of my recent TPK. I did this largely because for that session, the most important thing was for them to learn D&D 5E with minimal frustrations. I'm actually a fan of games with a mechanic that allows players not to have their characters die unless they want them to. Star Wars Saga Edition, for example, gives players a certain number of force points per level, and one of their uses is to declare that a PC is only knocked out when hit with an attack that would otherwise kill the character. One reason for this is that there is no resurrection in the game, so if a PC dies, he/she is permanently dead. But it also gives a cinematic, genre-appropriate flavor to the game, I think. Some people say the threat of PC death is necessary to make the players respect the challenges of the game--and I don't doubt that's true at some tables. However, the groups I play in are more likely to back down and refuse to do anything risky if it might mean losing their PCs.
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TPKs
Oct 28, 2014 14:46:11 GMT -8
Post by lowkeyoh on Oct 28, 2014 14:46:11 GMT -8
I'm actually a fan of games with a mechanic that allows players not to have their characters die unless they want them to. Star Wars Saga Edition, for example, gives players a certain number of force points per level, and one of their uses is to declare that a PC is only knocked out when hit with an attack that would otherwise kill the character. One reason for this is that there is no resurrection in the game, so if a PC dies, he/she is permanently dead. But it also gives a cinematic, genre-appropriate flavor to the game, I think. Shadowrun 5e has a stat called Edge which is basically a representation of luck. You have a pool of points equal to your stat, so a 6 in Edge gives you six points. You can points to do things like reroll dice, or turn a critical failure into a normal failure, or go first in combat. Your pool of edge refreshes over time. You can permanently burn a point of edge, lowering your rating down by one to survive against all odds. This makes you less lucky in the future, but lets you walk away from that fiery crash when your car got hit by a heat seeking missile.
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
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Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 16, 2014 17:05:38 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 16, 2014 17:05:38 GMT -8
I can honestly say that I have never killed off an entire party. I HAVE had several parties do incredibly stupid things and suffer the consequences of their own actions. Stu wrote a song about this... On several occasions the death of party A became a hook and story point for the B cast. I am a sandbox GM and very comfortable with winging it. I think that has some bearing in the discussion. Player agency is important to me. I actually post a reminder to players on the front of my screen: "just because there is a lock, doesn't mean there is a key. Just because there is a key doesn't mean there is a lock. Just because you encounter it doesn't mean you have to kill it, or even can! Talking and running are viable options..." That's the beginning of it. I played this way in 1 E. I play the same way in Pathfinder, GURPS, and Savage Worlds. In my opinion, if there is nothing on the line then it's just an exercise.
Muddyboots
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Post by Kainguru on Nov 17, 2014 1:38:44 GMT -8
We very nearly had a TPK in DnD Adventurers League game - everyone was down. Then myself (playing a Bard) and another player (a monk) managed to roll natural 20's on our 3rd 'death save' (a mixture of failure and success preceded these rolls). So we were stabilised and up on 1hp each - a well placed cantrip by the myself and an unarmed strike by the monk = success. Out of of party of 5 only we 2 were left standing - very much the worse for wear . . . It was a Pyrrhic victory at best but memorable. BTW. - just goes to show how deadly 5e can be and, as such, the issue of potential TPK's will, IMHO, become increasingly topical . . . Aaron
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
Preferred Game Systems: Callofsavagetoon 5ERPS
Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 17, 2014 18:22:14 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 17, 2014 18:22:14 GMT -8
5E deadly? 1E was deadly. Especially if you didn't house rule 0 unconsciousness and -10 death... I do admit that 5E just feels right. Muddyboots
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 2:24:23 GMT -8
Post by Kainguru on Nov 18, 2014 2:24:23 GMT -8
5E deadly? 1E was deadly. Especially if you didn't house rule 0 unconsciousness and -10 death... I do admit that 5E just feels right. Muddyboots I should have clarified . . . deadlier than 3.x/PF thru 4. 2e could be just as deadly as 1e depending on the given games choice of optional rulings . . . certainly Dragons and Giants and such were buffed considerably between 1e and 2e to make them more potentially threatening. Aaron
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 4:57:10 GMT -8
Post by archmagezemoc on Nov 18, 2014 4:57:10 GMT -8
Well, since you mentioned giants, I've had 2 parties get cock-blocked by giants now. One group was almost massacred by 5 Frost Giants, only 2 were fighting. Then this past week in a different (but related) campaign another group decided to head-on attack a fortress of Fire Giants. Did not turn out well that time either. Both times tho, almost a TPK, has had the players cheering and chomping at the bit to play again, and as an added bonus they all HATE giants now! Fun times
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
Preferred Game Systems: Callofsavagetoon 5ERPS
Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 6:14:49 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 18, 2014 6:14:49 GMT -8
Aaron, I got what you meant and agree with what you are saying about it. True Dat!
Giants! Imagine a young Paladin on a solo adventure who has just slipped and fallen down a steep embankment, landing prone at the feet of a Frost Giant... That is where the game paused. In 1979. That (my) 1st level Paladin is suspended in the state of about to become Strawberry Jam in my mind. It is technically a TPK that is about to happen. I think about it all the time.
...Now we're back at character gen-our error we do see...
Muddyboots
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