mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Jul 3, 2015 19:09:27 GMT -8
I have heard a few times the idea of running away. It seems to me the problem is the attack of opportunity rules are really a disincentive to disengaging from combat.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 3, 2015 22:30:14 GMT -8
Five foot step and then run?
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Post by malifer on Jul 4, 2015 6:08:23 GMT -8
In D&D isn't there a disincentive to do anything that isn't combat related?
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 4, 2015 9:01:34 GMT -8
In D&D 5 there is an actual Disengage action which allows you to move without provoking attacks of opportunity. Of course, attacks of opportunity are less harsh in D&D 5 to begin with, though.
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Post by squeatus on Jul 11, 2015 19:45:59 GMT -8
In D&D isn't there a disincentive to do anything that isn't combat related? I think 5E addresses other areas of RPG play with the background/story/ideals and the general fluffiness of the rulebook content. Hell, even some monsters in the monster manual have non-combat related abilities. As for the "disincentive" to leave combat, I'm pretty sure the rule is just that you can't both attack someone and run away at the same time without leaving yourself open to an attack. It seems to be a pretty common sense rule--a more munchkin (3.x, 4e) way of doing it would have been to have a complex system of feats that allow you to triple attack in the middle of somersaulting past three enemies, then cast a spell with a free action before having your pet monkey pour a healing potion in your mouth, followed immediately by directing your zombie army to take their individual attacks on your action. Still, there's no doubt the DnD rules do tend to cover combat in the most detail (still very "lite") because that's the hardest aspect of an RPG to handle without an agreed upon framework to arbitrate the "I hit"/"No you don't!" arguments. It's always possible to use a douchey system of compels/narrative overrides to foster a "traditional RPGs and their dice are so...gauche" atmosphere. Then again, in those systems, you're not really having a combat then so much as engaging in a mutual verbal masturbation over your John Woo empowerment fantasy. 5E is pretty refreshing for a DnD game, and actively encourages things which aren't combat related.
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Post by malifer on Jul 12, 2015 4:36:14 GMT -8
In D&D isn't there a disincentive to do anything that isn't combat related? I think 5E addresses other areas of RPG play with the background/story/ideals and the general fluffiness of the rulebook content. Hell, even some monsters in the monster manual have non-combat related abilities. As for the "disincentive" to leave combat, I'm pretty sure the rule is just that you can't both attack someone and run away at the same time without leaving yourself open to an attack. It seems to be a pretty common sense rule--a more munchkin (3.x, 4e) way of doing it would have been to have a complex system of feats that allow you to triple attack in the middle of somersaulting past three enemies, then cast a spell with a free action before having your pet monkey pour a healing potion in your mouth, followed immediately by directing your zombie army to take their individual attacks on your action. Still, there's no doubt the DnD rules do tend to cover combat in the most detail (still very "lite") because that's the hardest aspect of an RPG to handle without an agreed upon framework to arbitrate the "I hit"/"No you don't!" arguments. It's always possible to use a douchey system of compels/narrative overrides to foster a "traditional RPGs and their dice are so...gauche" atmosphere. Then again, in those systems, you're not really having a combat then so much as engaging in a mutual verbal masturbation over your John Woo empowerment fantasy. 5E is pretty refreshing for a DnD game, and actively encourages things which aren't combat related. Ha! My snarky comment got a quote. I doubt it was worth it. But I'll oblige. Most rpgs cover combat extensively they definitely tend to show their roots as a war game. I have no ill will towards them on that, while it is documented on these forums in audio/video and posts with D.T. Pints and others that combat is my least favorite part of rpgs. I too am not a fan of the FATEs, but D&D 5e can take a long walk off a short pier. It seems no different to me than "any" other version, yup I'm including the edition that shall not be named. Although that edition did try to do something new. All in all Combat in D&D is simply uninteresting which is a shame considering it is most of the rules. But alas I feel I have derailed this thread enough all because a joke post, so my apologies to mrcj who only wanted a genuine discussion about the game. Perhaps I will scurry over to the shadows of the AW threads and find a certain HyveMynd to annoy.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 12, 2015 7:18:36 GMT -8
malifer's opinion of running away and combat in D&D in general... As an unrelated sidenote...falling into the Benny Hill rabbit hole I love that I used to watch that show at ten with my dad. Brits and their sexism...*ducks*
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Post by malifer on Jul 12, 2015 7:25:21 GMT -8
malifer's opinion of running away and combat in D&D in general... As an unrelated sidenote...falling into the Benny Hill rabbit hole I love that I used to watch that show at ten with my dad. Brits and their sexism...*ducks* In fact I ran away from combat just last night. Stupid Ghost Wizard to let it slip that he couldn't leave the room, then I made him angry and we ran out of said room.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 12, 2015 7:28:27 GMT -8
"Heaven's to Mergatroyd!"
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Post by stork on Jul 12, 2015 17:36:04 GMT -8
"As for the "disincentive" to leave combat, I'm pretty sure the rule is just that you can't both attack someone and run away at the same time without leaving yourself open to an attack. It seems to be a pretty common sense rule--a more munchkin (3.x, 4e) way of doing it would have been to have a complex system of feats that allow you to triple attack in the middle of somersaulting past three enemies, then cast a spell with a free action before having your pet monkey pour a healing potion in your mouth, followed immediately by directing your zombie army to take their individual attacks on your action."
BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA.........It's funny cause its true!
+1 this
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sbloyd
Supporter
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Post by sbloyd on Jul 13, 2015 12:14:26 GMT -8
My pet monkey has a level in Alchemist, letting him dual wield healing potions to pour down my throat.
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bevinflannery
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Post by bevinflannery on Jul 13, 2015 12:32:34 GMT -8
I am in the middle of resolving a combat where a player decided to have his PC go in alone -- telling all the other PCs to wait for him outside and they agreed to do so -- into a cave that he had to crawl into, in search of a basilisk, knowing there were probably more than one. Despite my extended, "are you really sure you want to do this?" and an explanation of all the penalties he'd be subject to from being prone and blindfolded, and a promise all dice would be rolled without any possibility of fudging (I had another player roll them) and no do-overs and a reminder that there is no resurrection in the setting.
We use the Pathfinder Hero Points option, which means that if the PC has at least two Hero Points, s/he can buy her way out of a deadly situation. He had only 1.
He decided to proceed anyway, with a couple of summoned earth elementals to lead the way as his "bodyguards." It became apparent early on that there were three basilisks, the elementals went down, and he started taking damage.
And Would. Not. Retreat.
Last attack from the basilisks (the player rolled 2 natural 20s for two of the basilisks, and confirmed one with another natural 20; and maxed out damage on another's non-critical attack) and his only option was to spend his last Hero Point to remove his blindfold right before the last attack killed him and let himself be petrified.
Now, he is stone and surrounded by three hungry basilisks and the other PCs have to figure out how to get him out of the cave -- they have to crawl in to get him -- before he starts losing limbs. (I also don't have regeneration in the setting.)
I find myself fighting the urge to tell them, "Hey, just take all his gear and leave him there."
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 14, 2015 7:53:10 GMT -8
Yep, if PCs push the boundaries like that I almost feel that they are trying to call your bluff. "You wouldn't kill my character...would you ?!?!" Makes for a good character death story.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 14, 2015 11:41:13 GMT -8
Yep, if PCs push the boundaries like that I almost feel that they are trying to call your bluff. "You wouldn't kill my character...would you ?!?!" Makes for a good character death story. The fateful last words to many, many, many hilarious nights with the WarBoyz (my group). After a few years it settled into a pretty good pattern. 1) New player joins us. 2) My old players goad them into doing something "awesome" but incredibly dumb. 3) New player does it, confident I wont slaughter his character like so much Long Pig. 4) Everyone howls with laughter as the new player listens to how his character his brutally destroyed in the very obvious way that was going to happen. My favorite in those dark old days was the fake item in a biting statue trap. so many lost limbs. One kid died 9 times in a single night of gaming, although after the 4th they kind of just kept seeing how many times I'd let him come back. (The PC would just change a single letter in his characters name, put a skull on his sheet for another death, then jump back into the campaign as the lost brother/sister/cousin of the last character who died. It was a silly game.) On the actual topic, Running away in 5E is alot easier than the other editions IMO with desengage, but I also wouldn't worry about AOO in 5e anyway, most monsters won't be killing you with their AoO. And if they do, well you probly shoulda run earlier.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 15, 2015 6:30:01 GMT -8
It is so often said on the podcast, "PCs don't ever run away..." Who are these people ? And what game are they playing ? Our "Awakening of the Desert King" Pathfinder campaign has basically been a three year 50+ session retreat as the world falls to shit around the characters they keep dodging out to the next location...because they are attached to their characters and want them to continue to exist. I don't think attacks of opportunity discourage fleeing but as archmagezemoc said if PCs are taking their existence into account they should not put themselves into situations of overwhelming numbers that AoO can kill them... Its called discretion being the better part of valor and its what makes games interesting.
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