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Post by Kimi on Mar 12, 2012 19:30:27 GMT -8
Today, I got in a heated argument on twitter over an article that a woman posted on some girl gamer website and I'd like your opinion. The article was basically stating that benny systems are an opportunity for sexist behavior on the part of the GM and players. The girl was saying that her group (who were otherwise great and even feminists) use this mechanic in a sexist way by not rewarding her sometimes and then finding lame reasons to reward her later. Here gamingaswomen.com/posts/2012/03/game-design-and-sexism-player-feedback-mechanics/ is the article for anyone who'd like to read it. I came to the defense of bennies, because we all love 'em, right? They have only ever improved any game I've run or played in. I said that the problem was not with the mechanic, but with the group. If there was sexism the player needed to call them on it and not suggest that subjective rules be altered or done away with. I also suggested, and here is where I got myself in trouble, that maybe she just wasn't a good RPer. If her group is fine the rest of the time, it stands to reason that she isn't getting rewards because she isn't that good, then her GM is trying to create reasons to give them to her later. What do you guys think? Should subjective mechanics be altered to make them absolutely fair to all players? Or should we follow the golden rule of gaming: "Thou shalt not play with assholes?"
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azuretalon
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Post by azuretalon on Mar 12, 2012 20:07:09 GMT -8
Kimi, I agree whole-heartedly. ANYTHING can be an opportunity for sexism, especially in roleplaying where a GMing handling subjective situations is pretty much constant. Pathfinder isn't sexist if the monsters only attack the male players character's, the GM is.
I agree it's possibly true, and think it's hilarious, but I can see where she didn't like the "pity benny" implication.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 20:47:54 GMT -8
I don't understand her basic argument:
A. We expect women to be responsible, do the boring administrative work, and in general shut down the fun. B. So women are less likely to be silly and thus C. everyone is less likely to notice when they are
What? That doesn't follow in any way. If anything, from her premises it would follow that people are MORE likely to notice a woman being silly because it deviates from the established pattern. Maybe she's not deviating enough in her "silly" behavior.
Maybe she's a great roleplayer or maybe she's terrible, who can say. I do know from experience with games like PTA, with a bad roleplayer in the group, the moment he did anything vaguely cool we wanted to reward him to encourage him to put more effort into his play. There was a lot of talk going on behind his back about his lame attempts at being cool. He tried a lot of shit in various games that I'm sure he thought was amazing and he must have expected praise. Instead of we kind of moved past it. He could have felt like we didn't notice it. We did notice, then rolled our eyes and cleared our throats and got back to the real action.
It's entirely possible that this chick sucks and doesn't know it. Her friends are too nice to say anything but are trying to throw some bennies around to keep her interested or guide her towards better play. She wants to assume its sexism because the other explanation for the group's behavior is that her play style doesn't fit with theirs.
That said, Kimi you got in argument with someone online? How could that possibly have gone well? No one shares their opinions of a blog to spark a debate, they do it to receive hollow praise from sycophantic commenters!
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 12, 2012 21:24:11 GMT -8
I read the article and replied on Twitter. I really take issue with the author assuming that I, a male gamer and often times GM, will only use the RP reward mechanics in relation to female gamers one of two ways; a) ignore their awesomeness and not give them a reward or b) give them "pity" rewards because I've been ignoring them due to their "lack of awesomeness". I also disagree with her assumption that, as a male, I'm wired to think that women are "boring", "tend to shut down the fun", and "can't be silly" (the quotes are her words, not mine). The more I think about it the more it really bugs me. So I'll move on.
In regards to subjective reward mechanics, I have yet to see one that was unfair to players because of their gender. In my experience, the loudest, most vocal, or most outgoing player has a better chance of getting RP rewards, simply because they are so noticeable to the GM. So you could argue that subjective rewards are biased towards a certain type of personality or play style. But to then say that the mechanics are sexist because you think that "men are more outgoing and women are more introverted and therefore men will get more rewards than women" is a huge stretch.
I would argue that the author of that article is being rather sexist herself because she's pigeonholing players into stereotypical gender roles. By saying "women are naturally quiet and subdued, so mechanics that reward an outgoing play style are sexist" is total bullshit. I think you said this already Kimi, but if you as a player think that you did something in game that warranted an RP reward, then effin' have the courage to stand up and point it out to the GM. Sitting there and silently calling the GM and other players sexist is a pretty lame excuse. If you don't want to make a big scene, talk about it after the game, or send an email if you're that adversed to face-to-face confrontation.
I'm not a woman (duh) so I obviously can't understand what it feels like to be a woman in this situation. But I am African American (not that you'd know it to look at me). Never have I claimed that I didn't get a Bennie just because I'm black. (Well, maybe I would say that as a joke.)
Do we, as gamers need to make the RP hobby more accessible to women? Yes. Should we examine and modify our behavior to prevent discrimination at the gaming table? Absolutely. Is it fair to say that a mechanic or player is sexist because you don't have the spine to stand up and call them on their mistake? No. </rant>
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Post by inflatus on Mar 12, 2012 21:43:12 GMT -8
Thou shalt not play with assholes. Some of the comments made to her post were made by some angry chicks. (like that sexism?)
She also said at the end of the post "If you are going to comment just to say sexism isn’t playing a role here, your comment will not be approved, unless you are specifically one of the people who has GM’d Paranoia or played PTA with me."
That is crap. I approve all non spam posts on my blog, even if someone does not agree with me. She is being an ass.
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Post by rickno7 on Mar 12, 2012 22:01:54 GMT -8
Stuff like this is currently making bank for some female video game bloggers right now, not saying this person is trying to jump on the bandwagon... but the article is just so contrived.
I agree with Kimmy, it is her group, not the game. Unless a game says stuff like "award bennies for flirting with the opposite sex", then any accusation that a game, being an object with no gender, is projection of the critic's own bias and/or wish to be oppressed(in a culture that idolizes the 60's social revolution, this happens very frequently).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2012 4:20:50 GMT -8
As someone who considers themselves an ardent feminist, and believes that sexism can be found in almost anything, I have to strongly disagree with a lot of what that author said.
While it does sound to me like her situation may involve some (unconscious) sexist behavior, it appears to be on the part of the GM. Or it may be an issue of personality. The whole "women aren't supposed to be silly, and no one notices when they are" thing not only isn't something I buy into, but also confuses me, because I don't think of bennies generally being a reward for "acting silly."
Kimi, if you commented that maybe this all meant she wasn't a good RPer... yeah, that might've crossed a line a bit, and I'm not surprised if it got into a pretty heated discussion after that. If you had said that to me, I'd be pretty pissed, too.
But, honestly, (as Inflatus pointed out) I'm inclined to disregard this author, if for no other reason than that second footnote:
"If you are going to comment just to say sexism isn’t playing a role here, your comment will not be approved, unless you are specifically one of the people who has GM’d Paranoia or played PTA with me"
So, only people who agree with me get to comment on this article, regardless of the sincerity and eloquence of the argument. That's just lovely...
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 13, 2012 4:37:12 GMT -8
My account actually got approved and I posted a comment on that site. I think my response was absolutely reasonable and fair. We'll see if it gets approved or not, since I said that the mechanics were not sexist. I'm posting it again here just in case it never sees the light of day because I disagreed with the author.
<start> I registered for this site specifically so that I could respond to this essay. Just to be absolutely up front here, I’m an analog RPG gamer, I frequently GM games, and I’m male.
I was rather insulted when the author made the sweeping generalization that, simply because I’m a male GM, I will a) ignore a female player’s contribution to the game and then b) give that player “pity rewards” because I’ve been ignoring her. I really don’t think that you can make a statement like that and say it applies equally to an entire gender group. You have obviously experienced this kind of situation numerous times though, or you wouldn’t have felt compelled to start this series of essays.
Is sexism playing a role here? Well, if you experience this sort of thing happening regularly and in a variety if different situations, then yes; sexism is playing a role. But I don’t think you can say that it’s the rules or mechanics that are sexually biased, but rather the GMs who are adjudicating them and handing out the rewards. I have yet to come across a subjective reward mechanic that makes reference to or cares about the player’s gender in it’s text. If someone has an example of a mechanic that does make reference to a player’s gender or is obviously sexually biased, I would be very interested in seeing it.
Because the GM of a game is often trying to do many things at one, I have found that it is the loud, outgoing, or noticeable players who often get the RP rewards regardless of gender simply because they pull the GM’s attention. So if anything, you could argue that subjective reward mechanics are biased towards a specific personality type or play style. They encourage people to act in such a way that attracts the GM’s attention.
The is precisely why I prefer games that have more structured subjective reward mechanics. Games like Savage Worlds have mechanics that boil down to “When a player does something cool, give them a Bennie.” This mechanic is very broadly worded and very much subject to the GM’s interpretation of what qualifies as being “awesome”. It’s ripe for abuse. To contrast this, New World of Darkness’s Virtue and Vice system, or Ubiquity’s Motivation and Flaw system both have fairly specific guidelines of when these rewards should be given out, what action the player needs to take to get those rewards, and what quantity of reward the GM should give that player. Even Apocalypse World which you mention in your essay has a fairly structured reward system. The Master of Ceremonies cannot simply hand out Hx points or Experience Points whenever they want to; the player must have their character initiate or be affected by a specific Move to increase/lose Hx or mark XP.
So to sum up, I don’t think you can say that the mechanics themselves are sexist. It’s the people interpreting and adjudicating the rules that are potentially sexist. </end>
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Post by The Barney on Mar 13, 2012 5:11:18 GMT -8
I made a few comments on twitter that night too, but was late to the topic and missed most of it as it was happening. Regardless of gender, my first thought of anyone missing the bennies is that they should up their game. The fact that she jumped straight to sexism and was offended by Kimi saying there might be some falt in her, only makes her the sexist and insulting to feminists, women, and gamers.
My opinion, like hers, is only worth what you think it is.
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Post by ironnikki on Mar 13, 2012 6:26:50 GMT -8
I'll add my voice to the masses- I've yet to see any kind of RP reward system that favors one type of player over another. If one player is receiving less rewards than another, the GM is the cause of that, and he or she may have perfectly good reasons for it. The issue is with the GM, not the system.
To be honest, though, after reading her second footnote, I just wrote off the entire thing. Anyone who refuses to even hear a counterargument has no place participating in any kind of a debate, especially one as touchy as this.
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Post by hoseirrob on Mar 13, 2012 7:34:36 GMT -8
Interesting debate and perspectives. Based on Kimi's initial thought of her being a bad roleplayer it made me think - What can GMs do to help bad roleplayers get better by using bennies.
Personally - I dont know Paranoia or her gaming group that well, so it is hard to judge. She only mentions playing with one GM and one group, so it could be that she is playing in a vacuum. I know my perceptions have roleplaying and systems have changed drastically as i have played with different groups and GMs. Hopefully limited experience is her only problem instead of rampant sexism inherent in a congratulatory based system.
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jimto
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Post by jimto on Mar 13, 2012 8:37:40 GMT -8
"If you are going to comment just to say sexism isn’t playing a role here, your comment will not be approved, unless you are specifically one of the people who has GM’d Paranoia or played PTA with me" So, only people who agree with me get to comment on this article, regardless of the sincerity and eloquence of the argument. That's just lovely... This annoyed me as much as the article. If you're going to make your opinions known in a public forum that comes with a comment section, you better have the spine to let your audience comment on it.
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Post by rickno7 on Mar 13, 2012 13:28:58 GMT -8
I do not believe you went too far by suggesting she may need to step up her role playing either. It was not a personal attack.
As a GM, I have come across people that will not take a hint. I am not talking about the players that just prefer combat and hang in the back, I can handle those and know how to make the game fun for them usually.
It is the people jealous of the attention the role players get during role playing, and want the bonus experience treats without putting in the effort. Some of them, no matter how heavy you hint(not giving them xp bonuses should have been a big hint), or how many carrots you dangle, or how many opportunities you throw their way, they will not understand until you blatantly tell them.
Of course then they get defensive and angry.
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Post by Kimi on Mar 13, 2012 15:59:41 GMT -8
Kimi, if you commented that maybe this all meant she wasn't a good RPer... yeah, that might've crossed a line a bit, and I'm not surprised if it got into a pretty heated discussion after that. If you had said that to me, I'd be pretty pissed, too. To be clear, I wasn't talking to the author directly. I was debating another girl gamer on twitter. The only reason I brought up her RP ability was because of the evidence stated in her post. She said that her group is usually great and includes "feminists". Maybe she is not getting bennies and is assuming it's because she's a girl, when really she needs to improve her RP. If there aren't other situations where there is sexist behavior, that leads me to question the entire premise of the post. Is it possible that her GM is sexist and doesn't realize it? Yep. Is it equally possible that her gender has nothing to do with it? From the information given in her post, yes. It is VERY important that we don't cry wolf with issues of bias and unfairness. If perfectly reasonable people are accused of it for simple human error, that will do more to strain the ties between male and female gamers.
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 13, 2012 17:17:45 GMT -8
Here's the thing... Anyone can find something to bitch about within anything if they are sensitive enough to it, or if they are looking for an excuse to be angry. Take for example me, lets say I joined a game where some sort of food item is used as a benny. Maybe a Ghostbusters game using marshmallows. If the GM, in a misplaced attempt to "help" me with my little morbidly obese issue, decided to hold back the bennies no matter how awesome I played... well that's just prejudiced against fat people. Right? Well no, its a friend being a friend, even though he's doing it in a weird way. It certainly could be conceived of as prejudiced and wrong, if I wanted to think people were thinking of me that way. Of course, I don't think that, because I have more faith in people than that. Misplaced faith maybe, but still.
I tend to not blame other people for my own shortcomings, but maybe that's just me.(And no, I'm not saying that being a woman is a shortcoming, I'm saying a "lack of awesomeness" is.)
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