finally
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Post by finally on Jul 27, 2015 11:08:46 GMT -8
The Bechdel test: if a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. I can't recall ever passing this test with NPCs. In fact, I can only remember a single game succeeding, we all played viking sisters. Are there any shame in failing?
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Post by Forresst on Jul 27, 2015 11:59:16 GMT -8
I totally seesawed on answering this one. I was like "vaguely feminist-related topic... IT'S A TRAP!!" But then I remembered I'm here at Happy Jacks and not on like, Reddit or somewhere so I probably won't get chewed apart. Hooray happy Jacks!
I'm a woman, and a feminist. I tend to pass Bechdel by accident. The big thing here that makes the Bechdel test a lot more muddy than in a movie or some such is that you have your PCs and then you have your NPCs. If there are no women among the PCs I would argue it's almost impossible to pass Bechdel. I mean, you're not going to make your players sit down and listen to you voice puppet theatre your way through a conversation between 2 female NPCs just to satisfy an arbitrary test, right? And keep in mind, to actually pass Bechdel, both NPCs must be named and must appear in at least one other scene each to qualify.
Because as useful as Bechdel is to comment on the state of any number of things in the movie industry, it does remain an arbitrary test. I'd argue that simply by being a dude and thinking about this sort of thing is almost good enough for a first step, as long as it's not the last step. If you're interested in trying to bring more women (fictional or not) into your game, that's a good thing. And if you have women playing women characters, talk to them. They might have some cool ideas for a female NPC that you maybe didn't think about the first time around.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 27, 2015 12:03:38 GMT -8
Actually, I disagree that the Bechdel test is at all useful. I'm going to have to wait until I get home to elaborate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 16:43:20 GMT -8
Seems like this test is easier the more female PC's you have. If you get up to three, chances are that two will talk about the third sooner or later. I know I avoid romantic entanglements in the games I play. That is not to say that the characters never have relationships, but they are very much in the background of the story. More than anything they are there as ways to motivate the character by threatening their loved ones or significant others (ala super hero tropes).
When I do play characters of the opposite gender they tend to be "one of the guys". Tough women like Deborah Morgan from Dexter. That said I did play a slightly more athletic version of a Cordelia Chase from Buffy type character in a game once. There was literal hair pulling... but the bad guys were coed vampires turned by a creepy outcast turned vampire to "serve" him. I don't really think either is a sterling example of all females as a gender (which is really hard with you all being a diverse bunch, just saying).
So the entire talking to another female about something other than a man... Since I avoid the romance at the game table for purposes of avoiding awkwardness that is just something that happens by default? Just a difference in mediums between TTRPG's and movies I suppose.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 27, 2015 20:22:01 GMT -8
So, ok... I'm home now, and in front of a real computer and not that blasted phone with it's tiny keys... ^.^
The basic problem with the Bechdel test is that it begs the question that two women in a book talking about men is a bad thing. It assumes it's own premise, thereby tainting the results of the test.
For instance, what if your two women talk about the men in their lives, only to come to the conclusion that they are both strong, capable women who don't need to be defined by their relationships? That's a strong, feminist message that COMPLETELY fails the Bechdel test.
Add to that the fact that if two guys spend the story/movie/whatever talking about the women in their lives, that's apparently alright. Or the inverse, spend the entire time never talking about their relationships... Isn't, in theory, your typical story-light, high octane action film just the inverse of the "chick flick" bunch of ladies take a weekend to Girl's Night it, and dish about the men. So, isn't that just as egregious?
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jul 28, 2015 5:27:59 GMT -8
ayslyn - As I understand it, the point of it is that the women can talk about something besides men, at some point. It's not the only thing they ever talk about. Anyhow, my big many-year campaign would have passed, yes - there were a shit-ton of NPCs. These days I lean more Stu-ish and avoid talking to myself in multiple NPC roles. My current game has no female PCs, and a limited number of female "Face" NPCs who have yet to interact, so no, it wouldn't pass.
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Post by uselesstriviaman on Jul 28, 2015 5:38:44 GMT -8
Not every session, but yes. My female PC can talk to female NPCs without talking specifically about men. I go out of my way to avoid having NPC-to-NPC conversations in my game, for the reasons sbloyd mentioned above.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 28, 2015 5:59:43 GMT -8
ayslyn - As I understand it, the point of it is that the women can talk about something besides men, at some point. It's not the only thing they ever talk about. I understand that. But again, it's a bad metric. Presume that my example was the entire story. It's still a powerful, positive message that utterly fails the Bechdel test. Which is why the Bechdel test is so flawed. It presumes that it's premise is a bad thing. Even without the message that women are powerful, capable people on their own, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a story, solely about a bunch of women getting together and dishing about the men in their lives.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jul 28, 2015 7:03:04 GMT -8
Upon further reflection, I think you may be right. The Bechdel test is really oriented towar evaluating narrative fiction; I'm not sure there are enough opportunities for extended dialogue to offer a chance to pass the test.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 28, 2015 7:12:27 GMT -8
I see the "test" as a valid critique of cinema, our major form of cultural expression in the United States but less so for RPGs. I call it more of a valid "observation". A way to think about our games in hopes to make them more interesting and more creative. Its about examining "outliers" and why or why they don't exist in our games. I've made the paladin order in our Mathfinder game mandatory fifty fifty male female characters. Why? Because its a FANTASY game and even though this doesn't reflect historical trends I think it creates a more interesting dynamic. That also is I feel a hopeful step away from tired tropes of Lancelots and Guineveres.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 7:49:57 GMT -8
ayslyn - As I understand it, the point of it is that the women can talk about something besides men, at some point. It's not the only thing they ever talk about. I understand that. But again, it's a bad metric. Presume that my example was the entire story. It's still a powerful, positive message that utterly fails the Bechdel test. Which is why the Bechdel test is so flawed. It presumes that it's premise is a bad thing. Even without the message that women are powerful, capable people on their own, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a story, solely about a bunch of women getting together and dishing about the men in their lives. The test never says that all films have to pass it though, it's point is to emphasise how rare it is for two women in a film to have a conversation that isn't about men while the opposite (two men having a conversation that isn't about women) occurs in virtually all mainstream movies. As for my games it mostly depends on the makeup of the party as like others I try and avoid NPC-NPC conversations. Generally though I tend to take a randomised approach to NPC genders so when there is a female PC (which is quite often with my regular group) there's a high chance of them encountering a female NPC and thus passing the test on that front.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Jul 28, 2015 7:50:50 GMT -8
I'm with D.T. I don't think it's about taking it as the word of god, and I think it'd be easy to punch some holes and find exceptions. And it's not about going around giving each adventure some score (B2 Keep on the Borderlands, $2.99, Bechdel Score = 0.15). I think it's really a something to remind you about in regards to world building if you care about inclusivity (which admittedly is not what all people necessarily care about). You could similarly plug in other things, like LGBT themes or characters, and in fact, a 2 second Google search leads me to the Russo test (a variant of the Bechdel): - The film contains a character that is identifiably lesbian, gay, bisexual, and/or transgender (LGBT).
- That character must not be solely or predominantly defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity (i.e. the character is made up of the same sort of unique character traits commonly used to differentiate straight characters from one another).
- The LGBT character must be tied into the plot in such a way that their removal would have a significant effect. Meaning they are not there to simply provide colorful commentary, paint urban authenticity, or (perhaps most commonly) set up a punchline; the character should matter.
This isn't to say that everyone needs to be sensitive to all these issues, but it helps you break out of stereotypical molds, and probably lead to more thematically interesting games and worlds (see The Queen's Cavaliers, as an example).
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jul 28, 2015 8:57:02 GMT -8
Green Ronin is bringing back Blue Rose, which breaks out of these molds as well, from what I understand.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 28, 2015 10:13:01 GMT -8
I'm not even talking about looking at the exceptions. There are all sorts of movies and books that completely fail the Bechdel test, and are the sort that it's REALLY looking for. And there is NOTHING wrong with them failing the test, which the author of said test believes there is. THAT is the problem.
Also, the reverse of the Bechdel test is not a couple of guys sitting around chatting about their love lives. I would argue that it's a couple of guys doing anything BUT talking about their relationships. And we have plenty of examples of them as well. The argument of the Bechdel test is that films that fail it cater to a bad stereotype. Couple of guys, sitting around, chatting about their relationships is not a stereotype, good or bad.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Jul 28, 2015 10:24:01 GMT -8
And there is NOTHING wrong with them failing the test, which the author of said test believes there is. THAT is the problem. Perhaps we're reading different articles? The author said (emphasis mine): The author is pointing out major films, some of which we wouldn't consider lacking for powerful female characters (Run Lola Run or Harry Potter) and how they fail the Bechdel text. I think it's very interesting. Is the test a tool for saying the movie is bad or misogynist? Not necessarily, and the author even says that's not the point, it's just to "get people thinking".
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