SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 28, 2015 14:01:24 GMT -8
This sort of question might get a lot more traction on reddit, or even better, the RPG.net forums. Oh it would get more traction on rpg.net... but a lot of it not conducive to anything productive.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 29, 2015 4:14:46 GMT -8
Well, I think a few of these responses have been very unfair to the OP, who only wanted to ask a question of a limited subset of society. Researches do this all the time - doctors researching the symptoms of the the second trimester to pregnancy don't send questionnaires to blokes. My own organisations sometimes surveys only people over 45, and sometimes only people between 13 -25. Admittedly, he could have gone about his research with a modicum more tact, but seriously guys, some of these responses don't show us hetro-normative patriarchs ( ) in a good light. Not disagreeing but the two examples don't translate as comparative to what I was talking about. The medical research is based on real and identifiable physiological facts related to definable condition, with the results only being applicable within the context of that condition. Second trimester symptoms, driven by the dependent variables of given metabolic and physiological changes are observable as related independent variables. Very much experimental research in design (quantitative), whereas social/cultural observations are very limited using that methodology - which is why qualitative research yields better results. The other common error is correlations: correlations do not make causations. Simply observing x happening when y does not prove x is actually related to y (unless the research is repeated extensively and in such a manner as to test other possible correlated relationships), nor does it prove a direction of effect - eg: when x happens y happens, but that does not mean x causes why or y causes x nor does it prove that y can only happen if x happens (unless we test q, r, s and t as well). This is one of the great criticisms of many of the purely neuro-cognitive models gaining traction in the popular press (rather the popular press often grossly misrepresent the findings of the neuro-cognitive research as the neuro-cognitive scientists very rarely claim what they have been reported to claim) At that point researchers become a booming business as they repeatedly test hypotheses across different target populations with no actual resolution in sight. ie: The body of knowledge grows without actually generating anything substantial/new . . . until another set of enterprising individuals come along and do a meta-analysis. Unsurprisingly, in psychology, many meta-analyses often find that the actual trend of many of these individuals pieces of research isn't quite what was expected. Many of the truisms of group behavior theories of the last 40 years have, in last 10 years, been subject to intense critical re-evaluation with many results being surprisingly counter-intuitive (what that really means is psychology got a bit lazy and stop questioning many assumptions of past research and treated these assumptions as facts until someone said 'hey, hold on, we need to actually test that . . .'). The UK, pleasingly, is spearheading this change . . . that's why they were able to get that replication of the 'forbidden experiment' ( Zimbardo Prison Study) through the ethics committee nearly 10 years ago. It was done by the OU with BBC funding it (BBC Prison Study). . . the results of that experiment were the opposite of those predicted and that of the original one by Zimbardo - the prisoners co-opted the wardens and they all rebelled against the establishment forcing an early end to the study. The whole area of group dynamics is fascinating but we know so little and so many of our past assumptions have proven invalid - the great strength of the qualitative model is that it tends to treat each participant as unique and tries to access the subjective experience of that individual without claiming that the findings are transferable. The real problem is not one of trying to represent all the preferences of all the different people within a target population, it is one of removing the idea of the tyranny of the 'normative' mean. The fact that the assumptions of the majority are represented doesn't make it 'right' or even effective because it puts us all in boxes. There will as much difference of opinion within the 'majority' population as there is within the 'minority' population - singling out a population and identifying it as a 'minority' creates the difference, creates division, creates 'us and them' when we are ALL diverse individuals with variant opinions and tastes that are not dictated by our gender or sexual preference. "The opposite to patriarchy is not matriarchy but fraternity" (Germaine Greer) Aaron
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bevinflannery
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 29, 2015 11:56:44 GMT -8
How would you feel if I asked the same question and said women, non-white people, and non-straight people's opinions were not wanted? Oh, how like a piece of chum trailed in the water, just to stir up trouble. Despite the obvious likelihood this is just trolling, I'll bite. Hell, it's a slow Saturday afternoon, why not? I've read, re-read, and re-re-read the initial post and fail to see the OP saying, "Hey, if you've got a penis, are white, and are heterosexual, please do not comment." Asking for input from someone who is not part of a particular sub-group does not equal refusing to hear from (or denigrating, or discounting, or scorning) input from those who are in that group. So, I'm just going to light this match and leave the fire burning with this (and I haven't even started drinking yet!): Imagine the world's smallest violin to play a sad, sad song for the straight white male whose opinion was not actively solicited. Goodness knows that it's such a trial and tribulation to simply open your own thread (or even, heavens forbid, just offer your opinion as various straight/curvy penis-carriers already have rather than gnashing your teeth in anguish that someone had the audacity to think they might want to hear the opinions of someone who is not your demographic equivalent. (For those who need to know -- straight, white female here.)
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 29, 2015 12:33:17 GMT -8
I will admit it passed my mind that it *may* have been (I stress *may* as in to appear to be even though it may not) a clumsy attempt to identify persons of a certain subset within the forum community - except, I like to believe, this community couldn't give a shit who you choose to have sex with, what colour you are, your gender or dietary habits: 'we're just here to talk games and shit and be douchebags along the way'. The other thought was that maybe we've seen the first rumblings of the firestorm that seems to be sweeping the internets at present - few places have been untouched by this recent devisive trend, especially in the geeky/nerd corners of the webs. All I can say is that such emancipation is deserved and should be supported, it's just they're going about it all wrong and doing themselves and their cause more harm than good. 'You bring about change to have a revolution, you don't have a revolution to bring about change because that just leads to a changing of places' ( forgot who said it but it a quote from a history theorist regarding the possible reasons for the apparent failure of the French Revolution in post-revolutionary France). Aaron
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Aug 29, 2015 13:21:43 GMT -8
Boo fucking hoo - someone asked for opinions from people who have the first hand perspective to give a reasoned answer.
Seriously..... If someone asked "hey, any psychologists care to share their thoughts on Freud?" - we would not be having a argument like this.
We certainly wouldn't have people on here saying "I can't believe you didn't include non-phallic schools of thought - you horrible person".
The OP asked a question, It wasn't directed at certain people. Was it prime troll bait? Yes. Does that mean someone who isn't a psychologist can help me resist the urge to bang my mum? No.
As Vladimir Putin might say, Crimea river.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 13:37:43 GMT -8
For the record, I am not trolling. Just like everyone else in the world, I'm tired of being put down based on what group others identify me with (even though we have never met). I don't give other people shit for their color, gender, or sexual preference and I'd like the same returned to me. I realize the Internet in anonymous, so people feel obliged to turn into giant assholes.
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bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 29, 2015 14:29:41 GMT -8
For the record, I am not trolling. Just like everyone else in the world, I'm tired of being put down based on what group others identify me with (even though we have never met). I don't give other people shit for their color, gender, or sexual preference and I'd like the same returned to me. I realize the Internet in anonymous, so people feel obliged to turn into giant assholes. Are you seriously saying you read a question phrased as "I'd like to hear from someone who is female" as putting you down for being male? I mean, really? Not giving primacy to your self-identified group is putting you down? Because even one beer into the evening I just can't even. Asking what gamers in Sweden find appealing is not implicitly saying the Finns are shitheads. But a Finn getting all ass clenchingly upset that the questioner didn't also show concern about what's selling in Helsinki might show that particular Finn is. Oh look, my glass is empty. I may move on to rum now.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 29, 2015 15:04:48 GMT -8
Ummmm this seems to be getting really confusing now - I mean really confusing. Just to make sure I'm getting this straight (no pun intended) it's not the original question that's really at issue. It's the later response that's caused the most controversy - yes, some people replied that weren't the target audience . . . But their replies were simply observational commentary and made with the greatest respect by openly declaring themselves as not 'the target population' or, in the spirit of the douchbaggery of this forum, as incidental humour. What then happened was an unexpected response and that's kicked everything off. If it's douchebag humour that's the problem - well that's just the way this small community is. If it's thread derailing then that's just the way this small community is. If it's an unexpected reply from an unexpected quarter then again - that's just the way it is. Are we all cunts? Probably but then I find if you assume everyone's a cunt to start with you can never be disappointed only ever pleasantly surprised when you're wrong. Anyway flame on - it's late here and gotta work again in the morning . . . Aaron (For the record 'mixed white other' is the box usually ticked in those work place diversity forms)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 21:42:21 GMT -8
For the record, I am not trolling. Just like everyone else in the world, I'm tired of being put down based on what group others identify me with (even though we have never met). I don't give other people shit for their color, gender, or sexual preference and I'd like the same returned to me. I realize the Internet in anonymous, so people feel obliged to turn into giant assholes. Are you seriously saying you read a question phrased as "I'd like to hear from someone who is female" as putting you down for being male? I mean, really? Not giving primacy to your self-identified group is putting you down? Because even one beer into the evening I just can't even. Asking what gamers in Sweden find appealing is not implicitly saying the Finns are shitheads. But a Finn getting all ass clenchingly upset that the questioner didn't also show concern about what's selling in Helsinki might show that particular Finn is. Oh look, my glass is empty. I may move on to rum now. Qualifiers matter. If you ask people from Finnland their opinion on a game to be produced in Finnish that will be a released primarily in Finnland, then no one cares. If you are 5th Ed D&D then the rest of the world wants to know why they as the bigger chunk of the RPG audience has been asked to kindly fuck off. Why? Because you weren't standing on a Finnish street asking people in Finnish, you were in Times Square. This form is a community of gamers, not a group of minority gamers. Nothing wrong with that, just is. Imagine someone came to your door from a political group and asked you if you were (insert minority you are not part of here), and then when you said no they left. Now you might be thinking, "hooray! Political people suck." You might also be thinking, "um, I vote too? Am I not good enough for your movement?" Ostensibly as a person who cares about politics (as an analog for RPG's) you would be bothered by this.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 29, 2015 21:47:47 GMT -8
Seriously..... If someone asked "hey, any psychologists care to share their thoughts on Freud?" - we would not be having a argument like this. False Equivalency and Begging the Question. I would argue against that, for instance. One doesn't have to be a psychologist to A.) have an opinion on Freud, or b.) be knowledgeable about him. Which, I suspect, is the point to which Kain is driving. Hell, look at... Tomes? post. Privilege which more often than not these days translates to "I don't like your opinion, so I'm going to make the absurd claim that you can't possibly empathize with my circumstances." Now, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that anyone here is using that word in that way. I'm also not saying that the OP was maliciously trying to exclude anyone, or push any sort of divisive agenda.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Aug 29, 2015 22:14:10 GMT -8
False Equivalency and Begging the Question. Fallacy fallacy.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 29, 2015 22:37:13 GMT -8
Not even a little.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 29, 2015 22:48:55 GMT -8
Seriously..... If someone asked "hey, any psychologists care to share their thoughts on Freud?" - we would not be having a argument like this. False Equivalency and Begging the Question. I would argue against that, for instance. One doesn't have to be a psychologist to A.) have an opinion on Freud, or b.) be knowledgeable about him. Which, I suspect, is the point to which Kain is driving. Hell, look at... Tomes? post. Privilege which more often than not these days translates to "I don't like your opinion, so I'm going to make the absurd claim that you can't possibly empathize with my circumstances." Now, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that anyone here is using that word in that way. I'm also not saying that the OP was maliciously trying to exclude anyone, or push any sort of divisive agenda. Basically yeah, plus I find that questions that get raised like this often cause more arguments and tend to resolve or promote nothing other than to demonstrate the very real fact that people of all different stripes all have their own very different opinions from each other. Aaron
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Aug 30, 2015 3:39:32 GMT -8
False Equivalency and Begging the Question. Fallacy fallacy. Fallacy fallacy fo fallacy manana nana no nallacy.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Aug 30, 2015 7:01:26 GMT -8
I had this as it's own post, but I ended up actually typing things, so I condensed the 2 posts into one. Are you seriously saying you read a question phrased as "I'd like to hear from someone who is female" as putting you down for being male? I mean, really? Not giving primacy to your self-identified group is putting you down? Because even one beer into the evening I just can't even. Asking what gamers in Sweden find appealing is not implicitly saying the Finns are shitheads. But a Finn getting all ass clenchingly upset that the questioner didn't also show concern about what's selling in Helsinki might show that particular Finn is. Oh look, my glass is empty. I may move on to rum now. Qualifiers matter. If you ask people from Finnland their opinion on a game to be produced in Finnish that will be a released primarily in Finnland, then no one cares. If you are 5th Ed D&D then the rest of the world wants to know why they as the bigger chunk of the RPG audience has been asked to kindly fuck off. Why? Because you weren't standing on a Finnish street asking people in Finnish, you were in Times Square. This form is a community of gamers, not a group of minority gamers. Nothing wrong with that, just is. Imagine someone came to your door from a political group and asked you if you were (insert minority you are not part of here), and then when you said no they left. Now you might be thinking, "hooray! Political people suck." You might also be thinking, "um, I vote too? Am I not good enough for your movement?" Ostensibly as a person who cares about politics (as an analog for RPG's) you would be bothered by this. 1) Because we all know 5E is the final solution to all of our RPG needs, I think we can all agree on that? And maybe the questioner only wants to find out how far behind the 5E-Renaissance they were. 1.5) Also what if I'm a Fin RPG gamer in Australia (I'm not) who was just offended by your hypothetical situation (I wasn't)! 2) When people come to my door asking me questions I'm usually the one to walk away first leaving them wondering at the open door if they should come in or not. And also no I don't care if they don't want my opinion, 3) Since you are a straight white male how about you give us your personal insight and stories on what it's like to stretch your 40 foot wingspan and soar above the earth, breathing deep of the 28kPa atmosphere. How little did the herds of raptors and majestic power of the tyrannosaurus rex look from up there? And just how much of a threat were Liopleurodon during your long oversee voyages?. . . . . .Oh wait, your not a Pterodactyl from the Cretaceous period so you can't really answer that huh. . . 4) And if you were interested in politics you would know that "Polling Demographics" are a legitimate thing. www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/
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