bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
Favorite Species of Monkey: It's an ape, not a monkey.
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 30, 2015 9:40:12 GMT -8
Qualifiers matter. If you ask people from Finnland their opinion on a game to be produced in Finnish that will be a released primarily in Finnland, then no one cares. If you are 5th Ed D&D then the rest of the world wants to know why they as the bigger chunk of the RPG audience has been asked to kindly fuck off. Why? Because you weren't standing on a Finnish street asking people in Finnish, you were in Times Square. If I were standing in Times Square wanting to know how to get tourists to come to my restaurant on West 46th, I'm not going to focus on seeking the opinions of native Manhattanites, especially not if I've already heard from or know where to find places where the native Manhattanites have expressed their opinions at length. Imagine a world where a product is sold to people of all kinds of different backgrounds. The purveyor is trying to figure out how to market that product in order to appeal to people from all kinds of different backgrounds with all kinds of different viewpoints and all kinds of different values and all kinds of different things they find appealing and all kinds of different things they find off-putting. For one particular demographic group, there is already tons of information about what they -- as an average, though certainly not every single member of that demographic group -- find appealing or off-putting. If you want to get a sense about what members of that particular demographic group thinks, you can open up any number of other threads on this very forum, or in numerous other forums. But the purveyor would like to figure out how to increase his/her odds of making the product appealing to people who fall into other demographic groups. So s/he asks, "Hey, is anyone here female/not-white/not heterosexual? I'd like to hear your opinion." Sure, it's not a scientific survey and isn't going to result in statistically valid sampling. But asking for input from members of those other demographic groups is not, simply by the act of asking, a declaration against the one demographic group whose interests/disinterests is largely already known. And it just strikes me as odd and nonsensical to read the question that way. Because to read it that way screams of self-absorption. The opinion of straight white men doesn't meet the needs of the person posing the question -- they're looking for input from someone who falls outside at least one of those three parameters (non-straight white men, or straight white women, or lesbian Hispanics, or straight Hispanic men/women, or whatever). That doesn't mean they devalue the opinion of straight white men -- it's just not input that serves their particular purpose at this particular time. It isn't a value judgment about a straight white man as a person, or about their opinions or their outlook or the benefit of having them open their wallets to buy the product. It just means there are other people the purveyor of the product would like to sell to, too, and in doing so they want to know what those other people think. Asking those other people to speak up is not the equivalent of telling straight white men to shut up. Oh, well then. I missed the guidelines that said we all need to pretend we are one and the same, and asking any question that presumes one might have different viewpoints influenced by whether you are a member of one or more minority groups (racial, gender, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, economic background, etc.) might hurt the sensitive feelings of those who fall within the majority demographic of this community. I'll just shut up and pretend to have a penis and just "me too!" when the spirit moves me. ... Er, no. Bullshit. If someone were to come to my door and ask me "Are you Jewish?" because they want to know how people from a Jewish religious or cultural background will react to a political candidate taking a particular stance on a particular issue, and I told them, "Sorry, no, I'm a lapsed Freewill Baptist raised in Eastern Kentucky and am now an atheist lawyer living in a mid-Atlantic metropolitan area" and they say, "Thanks, but we already know how that group will vote because we've already spoken with/heard from 6 gazillion other people just like you" and then go on their way, it wouldn't bother me one whit. They're just not looking to know my opinion right now -- I'm not going to get my nose out of joint about it. (I might wonder where the fuck they found all those other atheist hillbilly lawyers because I'd like to invite them over for a barbecue.) If you've got something to say about what you think people who aren't straight white males would answer these questions: then have at it. But you haven't. As I've read it, you're bent out of shape because the questions aren't phrased in a way that shows appropriate (however that is defined) deference to and recognition of the over-riding importance of the opinion of the straight white male, and you've done it in a way that seems to say everyone should just accept the fact that this community is "of gamers" who are one big indistinguishable block of people for whom the straight white male is, by default, capable of speaking decisively for every single member of that community. Sure, the odds are most of the members of this community fall comfortably within that demographic as they define their own identities. But not everyone does -- and asking for the opinions of people who fall outside that demographic is not a big "fuck you" to the majority members of that sausage-fest. (Mmmm, sausage.) On the other hand, saying the question shouldn't be asked at all, because the asking is somehow insulting to the straight white male, does sound like a big "fuck you" to those who aren't straight white males. It sounds a hell of a lot like "know your place and don't expect to be asked what you think" with a dollop of "I need to pretend we're all homogenous and like-minded, it makes me uncomfortable to consider the possibility people are either unlike me in some way, or that their differences somehow influence their opinions" and a flavoring of "I need to all act as if we are the same -- more specifically, just like me -- in order to have fun around here." As for myself, having failed to actually respond to the questions, I'll just say Forresst pretty much covered it for me in the initial response to the questions. But if you want me to find a straight white male to select as a spokesman for me, then I guess SirGuido (who insists he is curvy, bow chicka wow wow, waggling of eyebrows and making an hourglass drawing with my hands in the air) could get a "me too!" from me, along with a hubba hubba and a wolf whistle, and a "Hey, baby, how you doin'?"
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 30, 2015 10:25:34 GMT -8
And it just strikes me as odd and nonsensical to read the question that way. Because to read it that way screams of self-absorption. The opinion of straight white men doesn't meet the needs of the person posing the question -- they're looking for input from someone who falls outside at least one of those three parameters (non-straight white men, or straight white women, or lesbian Hispanics, or straight Hispanic men/women, or whatever). That doesn't mean they devalue the opinion of straight white men -- it's just not input that serves their particular purpose at this particular time. It isn't a value judgment about a straight white man as a person, or about their opinions or their outlook or the benefit of having them open their wallets to buy the product. It just means there are other people the purveyor of the product would like to sell to, too, and in doing so they want to know what those other people think. Asking those other people to speak up is not the equivalent of telling straight white men to shut up. Not really. It isn't nonsensical, nor does it scream of self-absorption. Especially since, as I mentioned before, Privilege was brought up. And these days, much more often than not, it's a code word for "Not only am I not soliciting your opinion, but it's foolish and egotistical for you to have an opinion on this in the first place." Hell, just look one post above yours, where archmagezemoc tells us that we can't possibly imagine what it might be like to be a pterodactyl. Despite ALL of us here being engaged in a hobby where it's our GOAL to imagine what it might be like to be people and things that are completely different to what we are in reality. Last time I checked, I wasn't a ten-thousand year old, immortal Elf, who was the Champion (intentional caps) of a goddess. But I can imagine what that might be like. I can imagine how he might think, or feel, or act. HOWEVER, that being said, I want to again stress that I am not of the opinion that the OP was trying to say any such thing. Just that I can understand how easy it would be for someone to take it that way.
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bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
Favorite Species of Monkey: It's an ape, not a monkey.
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 30, 2015 11:05:20 GMT -8
It isn't nonsensical, nor does it scream of self-absorption. Especially since, as I mentioned before, Privilege was brought up. And these days, much more often than not, it's a code word for "Not only am I not soliciting your opinion, but it's foolish and egotistical for you to have an opinion on this in the first place." Perhaps I misread what had stevensw all wrought up. I read it as directed to the original question. So I'll re-read and focus on the use of "privilege," which first came up in tomes' post. At that time, it was accompanied by an acknowledgment of the coded definition problem you point out, and was carefully phrased to make clear that tomes did not mean to say: So if stevensw's strong reaction was to the introduction of the word or the topic of "privilege," despite tomes' efforts to define his intended meaning and tomes' further invitation to go ahead and contribute, then I'm still perplexed. In fact, I find the reaction to be even more perplexingly self-absorbed. I mean, seriously, if an explicit statement of "please understand, acknowledging the validity of the opinions of people different from you does not mean you are an asshole" is read to mean, "hey, you're accusing people like me of being assholes ..." Well, as before, I can't even. It's a sad state of affairs if a discussion about how different factors influence people's tastes (whether about rpgs, tv shows, movies, politics, food, etc.) must be shut down even when prefaced with a statement like tomes'. That points us at the point of having to pretend there are no differences -- and that we are all like, and think like, and feel like, the "norm" because to do anything else is an insult to the "norm" even when you say you mean no such insult.And it's a sad state of affairs that such a prefacing statement is required for fear that the "norm" might feel insulted simply by the act of recognizing there are people who are outside the "norm" who might have valid and valuable opinions to offer that differ from the opinions held by those who are the "norm." And yet how many male gamers have said, "I can't imagine playing a female character"? (That always makes me feel sorry for the players in games GM'ed by such folk -- it must mean their female NPCs are card-board caricatures with no substance to them.) But that's a different bemused rant for another day. I'll let archmagezemoc defend himself (herself? I wasn't keeping track), but I think there's a difference -- and a meaningful one, when asking about what happens in the real world -- between being empathetic and able to imagine yourself in another's shoes and actually being the person wearing those shoes. There's a difference -- and a meaningful one -- between asking Person X what they think rather than asking Person Y, who is standing next to them, what Person Y imagines Person X thinks. For example, I have no reason to believe my spouse would disagree in any way with what Forresst stated in her response to the original poster. But there's a difference between asking my spouse to imagine what his wife thinks and actually asking his wife. If I'm in a gaming store looking to try out something new, I expect the store clerk to ask me what I find to be appealing rather than ignoring me and turning to my husband to ask him to imagine what I might want to spend my money on. I also expect my spouse to accept the fact that I can speak for myself -- and probably do so more thoroughly and accurately than he can -- without getting his nose out of joint.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 30, 2015 13:25:43 GMT -8
Aaaaand, you sorta reinforce my point...
I'm editing this to add more. In fairness you do deserve a less glib-sounding one line response.
Reread your own post. You're doing the exact thing that I'm talking about. You don't even try to understand how someone who, these days, is constantly being told that not only is their opinion not important, but that even daring to have an opinion is egotistical and self-absorbed, MIGHT... just might take this sort of thing the wrong way. Not only that... But you tell him that his having an opposing opinion on it is self-absorbed.... Irony of ironies...
Look at your pity for men who can't imagine playing female characters. All of the women that I've personally gamed with never considered playing men. But you don't even acknowledge that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2015 13:38:54 GMT -8
Aaaaand, you sorta reinforce my point... I'm editing this to add more. In fairness you do deserve a less glib-sounding one line response. This. Exactly.
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Post by Forresst on Aug 30, 2015 14:02:58 GMT -8
Man, that'll teach me to wander off for a few days after answering a question... Ok, so.
Funny how so many of us read such different tones into a fairly innocuous question. I'm looking at it and thinking it's basically a marketing question. "Hey, how do I organize my product to appeal to a broader range of demographics? I know, I'll ask some women, some minority populations and maybe a few LGBT people!" Coming at it from that angle, I can't understand why anyone would be offended about not being asked the same questions. I mean, think about it. All it means is the OP already knows how to appeal to your particular demographic. HOORAY! You aren't some inconceivable entity from beyond time and space with a tiny desperate Triscuit ad flashing across your YouTube!
As for the people getting in a bunch over being excluded? Jesus Christ, grow up. I mean, what the hell else am I going to say?
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 30, 2015 14:24:33 GMT -8
Aaaaand, this time the glib one liner is warranted.
Since I'm clearly talking to brick walls, I'll bow out. Enjoy your righteous-fest and giant heaping of irony.
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bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
Favorite Species of Monkey: It's an ape, not a monkey.
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 30, 2015 14:41:14 GMT -8
Aaaaand, you sorta reinforce my point... I'm editing this to add more. In fairness you do deserve a less glib-sounding one line response. Reread your own post. You're doing the exact thing that I'm talking about. You don't even try to understand how someone who, these days, is constantly being told that not only is their opinion not important, but that even daring to have an opinion is egotistical and self-absorbed, MIGHT... just might take this sort of thing the wrong way. Not only that... But you tell him that his having an opposing opinion on it is self-absorbed.... Irony of ironies... But I'm not saying it's self-absorbed to have an opposing opinion. At this point, I don't even know what his opinion is other than "I should have been asked what I think, too." I'm saying that insisting there is insult to Demographic A because a questioner wants to know what Demographic B thinks -- and doesn't take the time to genuflect in the direction of Demographic A -- is self-absorbed. If I want to know what Demographic B thinks, why do I have to at the same time say, "Oh, Demographic A, you're still important, and I'd really love to hear what you have to say"? Lest there be any doubt, if someone were to come along and start a thread titled "Gaming Question for Straight White Men" posing exactly the same questions, I wouldn't get my nose out of joint. I might find it amusing (after all, straight white men aren't exactly prevented from offering those opinions here or anywhere else), but I don't view it as a personal insult that a particular thread might be focused on someone who isn't exactly like me. If it gets a straight white male upset that someone might express interest in knowing what a straight white female/minority lesbian/homosexual white male/whatever thinks, my response also is just "Grow up." Not everybody is going to care what a straight white male thinks at every moment of every day. (Or a straight white female, like myself for that matter.) The fact that your demographic isn't always, at every moment, at every point, in every discussion given consideration is not unfair or "bigoted" or "exclusionary." It just means that sometimes, people different from you (that's a generic universal "you", not a you you) (or me, or anyone else) are invited to speak. But insisting that your demographic must be considered, at every moment, at every point, in every discussion ...? How is that not self-absorbed? Nope, not pity. Bemusement. If you want me to expand the comment to include women who won't contemplate playing male player characters -- sure, I'll accept that. In every venue I've been in (add caveat about anecdotes not being the plural of data), most players polled have said they just can't play characters of a different gender (or different sexual orientation or different real-world race) because they just can't imagine themselves there, and I've noted no difference in the percentages of how female and male players respond to that question. That doesn't gibe with the fact that many of those same players (male or female) also GM and play NPCs who are a gender other than their own. It also doesn't gibe with "rpg players are so imaginative, people who are X should be solicited to offer their ideas on what people who are Y think." My off-the-cuff comment addressed that last point. I don't deny that many men are imaginative/empathetic enough to offer valuable opinions about what might be important to women. That said, I still think it's more important to poll women about what women think (even if they don't come to a consensus) than to start with polling men. And to flip it around, if I wanted to know, as the publisher/manufacturer/vendor of a product, what men think, I'll start with polling men rather than women. And I don't think I or anyone else should have to apologize to anyone for being interested, at any given moment in time, about what women think rather than soliciting the opinion of men. Or vice-versa. Insert whatever other paired identities strike your fancy. The point is the same: You (again, the universal "you" not the individual you) don't always get to be the center of attention, and the rest of the world doesn't have to feel apologetic or guilty for not putting the spotlight on "you" all the time.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 30, 2015 14:46:15 GMT -8
Technically I fit the requested demographic - male, mixed white OTHER. I don't want to go into specifying 'other' because: reasons. It's enough to say when I look in the mirror I don't 'see' it (whereas my partner can, even before we got together and I explained what it is) because I'm more concerned with finding common ground in a world full of differences, bringing people together despite these differences. Personally I just want a world where it simply doesn't matter because I refuse to defined by something that shouldn't have any bearing on who I am as an individual. Likewise I shouldn't let the fact of other people's heritage, be it majority or minority, influence my consideration of them as unique individuals - an arsehole is an arsehole because s/he is an arsehole and good person is a good person because s/he is a good person based on how they act, nothing else matters. Aaron
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bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
Favorite Species of Monkey: It's an ape, not a monkey.
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 30, 2015 15:06:01 GMT -8
Technically I fit the requested demographic - male, mixed white OTHER. I don't want to go into specifying 'other' because: reasons. It's enough to say when I look in the mirror I don't 'see' it (whereas my partner can, even before we got 'together' and I explained what it is) because I'm more concerned with finding common ground in a world full of differences, bringing people together despite these differences. Personally I just want a world where it simply doesn't matter because I refuse to defined by something that shouldn't have any bearing on who I am as an individual. Likewise I shouldn't let the fact of other people's heritage, be it majority or minority, influence my consideration of them as unique individuals - an arsehole is an arsehole because s/he is an arsehole and good person is a good person because s/he is a good person based on how they act, nothing else matters. Hell, not even I can find a point to argue with in that. But if someone wants to pay me, I'll work on it.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Aug 30, 2015 18:14:32 GMT -8
Me, I'm not in the requested demo. But things that affect that demo? Very important to me, for a couple reasons. (Edit: this got a little ranty. For that, I'm sorry. But this has been stewing in me for a bit; I've actually thought about blocking this thread from my feed simply because of the conflict it was spurring in me. Instead, I'm vomiting it out after a rough evening trying to get the baby to sleep.) I grew up in a shithole little Tennessee town where they still worship Confederate War soldiers as heroes, where all the black people live in the Projects, where if you're not white you aren't going to get anything better than menial labor while the White Folks lord it over you. From the kind of family that disowned my brother for dating a black woman (with a PhD, you motherfuckers, she did more with her life that you racist bastards ever did). Where, when I visited my grandmother a couple years ago, everyone stared and talked behind our backs when I walked down the street holding my Mexican-heritage wife's hand. Now I've got a daughter who's going to - if any other of my wife's family members are anything to go by - be golden brown, probably. She might even look African-American, if my brother-in-law is anything to go by. Maybe she'll be gay, or bi, or poly, or ace, or trans. Who fucking knows? So things like this weigh on my mind - the kind of world my daughter will be growing up in. And RPGs are part of that world, a part I hope she'll want to enjoy and take part in. I hope there will be role models for her - beyond the token "Let's throw one female, brown person in the book so our asses are covered!" While I'm at it, I'll remind us of the Prismatic Art Collection founded by Kimi's one-time nemesis, Sarah Darkmagic, which is an attempt to offer more diversity in character art.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Aug 30, 2015 20:16:03 GMT -8
So uh, when I said you aren't a Pterodactyl so you can't answer Pterodactyl questions I felt like I was safe there. Clearly I wasn't, so if you may, please answer the following questions with only personal experiences and knowledge.
1) How long does it take your nearly watermelon sized eggs to hatch, and how quickly can they savage other species of bird and reptile after being born.
2) What's your average flight altitude and speed? Additionally, is this a common height among Pterodactyls or is this your individual preferences?
3) When divebombing large fish from the sea how do you spot a Liopleurodon before getting too close to the surface and being chomped down on?
4) What's your favorite cretaceous flora and or fauna and why is it just so darn tasty?
5) How do you say "I'm lost and don't speak Pterodactyl" in Pterodactyl?
Remember, this is a serious polling and may only be answered with real life experiences. Now. If you can answer these questions without hypothesizing or whatnot, then uh, well shit you must be a Pterodactyl who had been frozen in the arctic/antarctic and was recently thawed out. In which case welcome to the 21st century, watch out for planes.
Also, the OP didn't ask for "Anyone who can think like a non-straight white male" so when I ask you how you THINK a random character that you invented thinks, then yes, you could answer that. But if someone needs/wants actual information about your elf champions historical culture and society, then uh, your fucked. And also, your elf is fake and therefor no one and nothing could ask them of information, yet I'm pretty sure there are non-straight white males in the world right? So what's the harm in asking them?
Imagine you had a question for a certified medical doctor, is the actor from Greys Anatomy, or Dr.House good enough because they can THINK like a Doctor cus they played one on TV? Or would you like the opinion of a real Doctor. . .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2015 22:30:39 GMT -8
Aug 30, 2015 15:41:14 GMT -7 bevinflannery said: I'm saying that insisting there is insult to Demographic A because a questioner wants to know what Demographic B thinks -- and doesn't take the time to genuflect in the direction of Demographic A -- is self-absorbed. If I want to know what Demographic B thinks, why do I have to at the same time say, "Oh, Demographic A, you're still important, and I'd really love to hear what you have to say"?
My iPad doesn't like the quoting system, don't know why. Anyways....
Because it's fucking polite! Also because assuming you know what we as a group want without asking is conceited bullshit. My experience with gamers in my own groups has shown that being trans, gay, etc does not change nearly anything about how a player interacts with the game. They are not some sacred unicorn full of plot and goodness, most of them want to kick ass and look good while doing it.... LIKE EVERYONE ELSE! Why? Maybe it's because they are part of this magical group called gamers. Although he might be on to something. Quick, someone go lobby the hipsters to see if our game design is story driven enough to be classified as cool!
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 31, 2015 1:48:34 GMT -8
And RPGs are part of that world, a part I hope she'll want to enjoy and take part in. I hope there will be role models for her - beyond the token "Let's throw one female, brown person in the book so our asses are covered!" This^ Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 31, 2015 2:12:55 GMT -8
My experience with gamers in my own groups has shown that being trans, gay, etc does not change nearly anything about how a player interacts with the game. They are not some sacred unicorn full of plot and goodness, most of them want to kick ass and look good while doing it.... LIKE EVERYONE ELSE! Why? Maybe it's because they are part of this magical group called gamers. and this^ Plus, I believe/hypothesize, that the variance of tastes/opinions/expectations of one subset would be consistent with that of any other subset . . . with degrees of overlap between all the subsets. My gay friend/work college is a prime example: he's Asian (in the UK sense of the word ie: ethnically from the India Sub-Continent but to my mind: British, because he comes from Britain but that's a whole other argument to do with finding the fine balance between cultural-diversity and unified multi-culturalism ie: having a society that doesn't degenerate into ghettos) and his preferred 'type' of partner would be a pale, skinny, emo with long black hair and tattoo's . . . that's what he finds attractive (he's not a gamer but if he was he'd definitely have been enticed by the likes of 'Vampire: The Masquerade' as a physical product) Aaron
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