bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
Favorite Species of Monkey: It's an ape, not a monkey.
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 31, 2015 2:38:12 GMT -8
My iPad doesn't like the quoting system, don't know why. Anyways.... Yeah, my phone doesn't either. For the sake of everyone on the board, I'll stop with this post, because it's clear we're talking past each other and I don't know how to make any meaningful dint in the logjam. See, i agree with you on the basic point that to a large extent, there will be substantial overlap between what a straight white male, or a straight white female, or a gay Asian female, or a 30-40 year old accountant might find fun or not fun in an RPG. I also agree that straight white males, with their straight white female sisters and wives and daughters and mothers and friends (or gay white male brothers and sons, or straight Hispanic male friends) and fellow gamers, might have something insightful to say in response to such questions. But I disagree with the proposition that because of such overlap, one should -- one must, unless one expects to be viewed as bigoted or close-minded or hostile to the straight white male -- assume there are no meaningful differences in opinion that are influenced by differences in background. And I disagree that it is impolite to ask the "different" people what those differences might be unless one also makes an obligatory gesture towards those in the "norm" simply to reassure them that their opinions still matter. If one is interested in knowing what X thinks, one shouldn't at the same time be required to also ask Y just because Y wants to express his/her own opinion on the same issue. Y can go ahead and do exactly that. But Y shouldn't expect that, as a default, s/he will always be the focus of an inquiry, or that every discussion about a topic of interest to Y must be directed to Y and a failure to do so means the questioner (or anyone interested in what X thinks) must be bigoted against people like Y. And sbloyd, I grew up in an Eastern Kentucky coal mining community. (Yes, I am a coal miner's daughter.) Very Bible belt, very socially conservative, where the high school had three kids (all from the same family) of mixed Pacific Islander heritage and everybody else was as Scots-Irish descent as you could possibly get. My Facebook friends list is a weird divide between those who post about how the Confederate flag is a symbol of pride and not at all about slavery, and how anyone who isn't the right flavor of Christian (i.e., whatever theirs happens to be) is going straight to hell, and how all lives matter and to say anything else is just putting the good Christian white man down, vs. those who post ... well, differently. And I think a lot about the world my 13-year-old daughter, as Northern European extract as you can get, born so far in the front row she has the wastebasket right in front of her. And it's important to her to have stories and movies and games that include more than the token girl, and girls who are more than eye candy or the damsel in distress, or the love interest whose death in Act I motivates the male hero to greatness in Act III. And yeah, it's important to me to say, "Hey, her opinion matters and it should be okay to solicit her opinion without being required, at the same time, to ask her brother's." Her brother can be asked in a different conversation, or maybe the two of them could be polled together in yet another. But it's okay -- it should be okay -- to show her that she gets to speak about something as important as her own opinion without first deferring to her brother. And if that strikes someone as fucking impolite, then so be it. As for her brother -- just to pre-emptively address any purported concern that he is ignored at home. I also think about and worry about him, his open heart and his willingness to welcome everyone with the assumption they all always mean well, and who is always so hurt when sometimes they don't and who struggles with liking what he likes even when his friends make fun of it, including growing his hair past his shoulders. But he won't get to play Grand Theft Auto at home in part because of the depictions of women in the games and I've explained to him why. So, sbloyd though I can't put myself in your shoes with your daughter and the additional concerns you have for her ... I do get at least part of it, and how difficult it can be to struggle with these issues. With that, I'm done. It's first day of school for the Boy, and I have to go roust him out of bed and insist that, yes, he really does need to take a bath and comb his long, luxurious locks before he heads off to school.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 31, 2015 2:53:54 GMT -8
It's less a logjam and more arguing at cross purposes - there seem to be at least 3 different threads of discourse getting mashed up and misconstrued. This sort of constructive debate would be better done in real time and spoken rather than being subject to the vagaries of written dialogue . . . the hazard of the internet is that even though the shared language of English is used on this forum there are often substantial differences in it's written form and understanding across different geographical communities. It's precisely this variance, and because of the misunderstandings that arise, that gave birth to the International English Project - a sort of Esperanto for English speakers (not to be confused with the International English option when installing software) Aaron
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 3:04:26 GMT -8
I would not assume that we do not understand each other as much as we do not agree. On the topic of kids and parenting I will not comment, good or bad. I'm not a parent out of choice, and I certainly would not tell others how to raise theirs.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 31, 2015 5:23:11 GMT -8
But there are bits where I get the impression several posters are saying exactly the same thing but they believe they are disagreeing. A case of 'what is being said' getting lost in 'how it is being said'. Aaron
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starwar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 52
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Post by starwar on Aug 31, 2015 6:44:04 GMT -8
Artwork is a big thing for me. I only play D&D 5E, but Numenera catches my eye in the art department. I am not that big on lore or rules. The bare minimum of that stuff is all I want/need. I guess it comes down to, give me a great looking monster book, where the monster's abilities showoff the game's rules and the monster's traits shine light on the lore. If the monsters look good, I wont have to redraw them. If the monsters have fun skills, I wont have to rework them. If the monsters have interesting lore, I wont have to come up with a better one.
Does this beg the question, What do monsters have to do with sexuality? I'll answer either way...nothing, please no rape monsters.
When it comes to what publishers should or should not do, it falls under the it's weird if you make it weird rule. Example this race of humans is called the Torfuss they primarily live around the lakes of Jansiquea. This race is the Terafalon they primarily live in the northern tundra of Fulise, they are more likely to have greater amounts of pubic hair. Oh, that is an odd thing to say. I guess that makes sense because of the cold and all. What about the Torfuss pubic hair?, I mean what does that even matter. Quit getting weird with things. Publishers don't need to express and certainly not specialize what goes on around the genitalia of a race, or gender. This expression of weirdness goes beyond genitalia as well. It's weird if you make it weird.
But you say, "It's cold in the tundra and you said so yourself it is logical that the Terafalon have more pubic hair. Therefore the game is accurate. And furthermore most people living in that world would know of that particulars race tendency to have more pubic hair. And a few jokes about that race and their bush is to be expected from the other races, people are tribal, you know? What if the Terafalon invaded the Torfuss years ago? There would be some latent hostility."
See how it gets weird, and I could not give a fuck for the lore?
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 31, 2015 7:15:24 GMT -8
I was going to not comment on the original question, as I'm not in the demographic, but since it might become a full-on flame war, I'll chime in.
When I first read the question, which uses exclusionary language, I had a little reactionary twinge.
Then I thought about it, is there a way to write that demographic constriction that doesn't *sound* exclusionary? Sure, but it would take a lot of space -- probably more than you get in the subject line.
So thinking about how I would better, more concisely frame that sentence as writer, I don't think I could.
So to ascribe malice or some such motive to the person writing it says more about us that it does them.
What's going on (mostly on Twitter) between the most vocal folks on either side of this issue is unproductive and horrible. I sure as fuck don't want that here.
When I saw this thread blow up from one page to four over the weekend, I figured I better check in.
Just as a reminder, even though we're on the internet, we're talking to other human beings, people who can be hurt by the horrible shit we say. Please try to be respectful, and refrain from slinging insults at people (except for me, you can insult me, I feed on it)
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Aug 31, 2015 10:22:08 GMT -8
I'm hoping that, while I was ranty, I was politely and respectfully ranty.
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bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
Favorite Species of Monkey: It's an ape, not a monkey.
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Post by bevinflannery on Aug 31, 2015 10:29:53 GMT -8
I think you were, sbloyd.
I tend to be on the strident side. But that's after years of trying softer mitigated speech on-line. I've gotten to the point where I just say what I think about things I feel passionately about, and if it's blunt, it's blunt. (Though, in all honesty, I'm also blunt even when I'm just playing devil's advocate and don't really give a crap about something.)
But I do apologize for calling the Finns shit-heads. (The only Finn I've ever met in my entire life was a lovely, lovely man who -- with his wife -- hosted me for a dinner once when I was far from home on a business trip, and who was a foster parent to many many special needs children. RIP, Mr. Hatunen.)
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 31, 2015 12:39:14 GMT -8
I was't actually offended by the original question, it was the reactions to the reactions that poked me with a pointy stick. I too hope I wasn't too ranty or offended anyone. Like Stu Venable I was (am?) more concerned that the current flame wars across the twitters etc shouldn't bleed onto this forum . . . I have one friend who has abandoned a forum appropriate to his interests (non-gaming) because it has, in it's entirety, been over run by exactly that. A shame as what was a group of like minded people coming together to discuss their mutual interest is now, for all intents and purposes, no more - the topic of interest has ceased to be the topic of that board as many long standing members have left it, permanently. Not a very inclusive result for anyone as, having been shown the remnants of that forum by my friend, they have begun to further differentiate their differences to further more arguments to create an even more exclusive community . . . Aaron
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 31, 2015 13:48:58 GMT -8
It hadn't risen (or descended, I suppose) to that level yet. I just don't want to see it get there again. It upsets me.
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Post by Fiona on Aug 31, 2015 14:01:49 GMT -8
As someone embroiled in the social media 'culture war', I can say two things, and only two things:
-This is one of the most accepting places on the net. For everyone. The only thing that matters here is that you game.
-I really don't want to see that war spill over to here. It just doesn't belong here.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Aug 31, 2015 15:20:10 GMT -8
As someone embroiled in the social media 'culture war', I can say two things, and only two things: -This is one of the most accepting places on the net. For everyone. The only thing that matters here is that you game. -I really don't want to see that war spill over to here. It just doesn't belong here. I agree here, I really don't understand the argument (In that I don't understand how people be gettin their cholesterol up over it) and I don't know how to use Pterodactyls again because I don't know wut the argument is anymore. So uh yea, I second this.
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SirGuido
Supporter
Drizztmas Santa
Ask me about the Drizztmas Exchange!
Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
Currently Playing: Nothing.
Currently Running: Nothing.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
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Post by SirGuido on Sept 1, 2015 23:33:21 GMT -8
I for one apologize for kicking this whole thing off. I didn't mean it... honest. Please don't hate me.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 2, 2015 10:10:56 GMT -8
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Post by Forresst on Sept 2, 2015 13:52:05 GMT -8
Hey SirGuido, for the record, I don't hate you, or really anyone. I get grouchy at some of us but like... I get grouchy at my own damn brother and he is my only brother and there's nobody else but him in our uh... kiddy pool? Whatever. Anyway. Grouchiness is not hate, at least not coming from me, and if I ever feel like I've descended to hate around here toward anyone? I'll just quietly show myself out, there's no need for a huff, you know?
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