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Post by uncommonman on Sept 7, 2015 8:58:23 GMT -8
I think level based games limit the way you plan an adventure.
If you are storming a Wizard tower in a level based game you as a gm has to make a few encounters based on your party (most obvious in pathfinder and d&d) while if you in other systems only make stats for the NPC's and monsters in the tower.
This is something that often come up in the podcast and I think things like unbalanced encounters, long combats, murder-hobos and long prep times can be solved by playing non level based games:
Unbalanced encounters - there is no encounters only enemies that needs to be defeated, an encounter is only unbalanced if the pc's are dumb and rush in unprepared.
Long combats - the transision in and out of combat is easier when there is no chalange rating to take in to concideration, a combat can consist of a few dice rolls or a single easy enemie without it being pointless experience wise.
Murder-hobos - non encounter based adventures makes it easier to create situations where there is more solutions than death, a guard is not a encounter he is a part of the world that can be interacted with in any way.
Long prep times - in a level based game you need to scale the npc's and monsters while in other games the stats are set and the pc's have to adapt and learn thier own limits.
Two examples:
Level based:
You prepare a encounter with the big bad and two minions.
Non level based:
You prepare the world and if the pc's go to the big bads location and encounter anything that lives there.
I am sorry for the bad spelling and if I don't make my point in a good way but I have had to little sleep (kids are great, especially with an ear infection).
I would love to explain if you don't understand what I meen.
Ps. It might also be a location difference since level based games were uncommon where I started playing.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Sept 7, 2015 9:14:03 GMT -8
Years ago, after about two AD&D sessions (I exaggerate, but not very long) we switched to RuneQuest and Traveller, citing the "more realistic" non-level based advancement system.
I think levels would have died a death if computer based RPGs handn't happened, level advancement is a useful emotional driver in cRPGs, and of course the computer can handle all sorts of complex book-keeping behind it. The fact that it appears in cRPGs means that it has survived in ttRPGs too, and in fact they have taken on some other aspects of level advancement (eg feats) from cRPGs.
As I've got older, I'm more relaxed about the differences between the two philosophies. I don't quite agree with you because I've learned not to bother too much about "balancing" encounters, in level-based or other games.
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Post by uncommonman on Sept 7, 2015 9:33:48 GMT -8
Ok, I just feel that there is a difference in level based game planing (encounters) vs. non (sandbox planing).
In level based there is a insentive to do more ridgid fighs worth a number of xp. while a non you can have a (better?) mix between skill rolls and combat stretched out over the game.
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starwar
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Post by starwar on Sept 7, 2015 11:15:56 GMT -8
I have to agree with Fredrix in that I do not worry over balancing either. Nor am I concerned with XP. I have never played a game without levels, but from the way you describe it I seem to be running a level-less game with the benefit of having levels.
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Post by HourEleven on Sept 7, 2015 18:32:30 GMT -8
In level based systems, I don't futz with XP or encounter balance (but my group is only about the story anyway) and just use Pathfinder Societies "every X sessions, you gain a level." Keeps the players getting new toys to play with and does away with the book keeping. I also don't bother with encounter/challenge ratings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 23:30:09 GMT -8
I think the issue is that non-level based progression obfuscates a slower progression track. A level in D&D is a huge jump in power. The equivalent bump in power via a point based system might happen once in an entire campaign. Characters typically see growth more outwards than upwards. If we take this knowledge and put it to use we see that it is easier to balance an encounter for the point based game over a longer period of time because of the retardation of advancement.
I've heard many times that lord of the rings characters would be level 5-6 in D&D. Imagine playing that as a campaign and only gaining a single level. Hoooooly shit. Your players would flip. Players want rewards. The fact that one of the few ways to give said reward involves a major shift in power leads to a game with drastic swings in the characters abilities. By comparison a point based game allows you to parcel out that levels worth of stuff a bit at a time. Players are happy to have a new toy either way, but the point buy doesn't require the reinvention of the wheel for the GM every few weeks.
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Post by uncommonman on Sept 19, 2015 4:07:40 GMT -8
A question to you who like level based games:
Do you have a fixed level for NPC's?
If a level 1 character attack a town guard, what is his level?
If a level 16 character does the same, what is the guards level?
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 19, 2015 6:05:45 GMT -8
Back in the day I didnt fuss with XP much either. Everyone was a given level until it was appropriate they advance (skip forward a year in the story, defeat a major enemy, etc.). uncommonman - My guards tended to be 0-level dudes. Every once in a while you found a 1st lvl fighter veteran. I didn't subscribe to the kinds of level creep you get where every barman is secretly a 10th level retired adventurer.
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 19, 2015 7:42:19 GMT -8
Not every, no... But I can see the synergy. Think about it. For your rogues, a tavern/bar makes for a great front. For bards, it's a good way to scope out new talent. For your less militant warriors, well, it's like a cop opening a bar...
So, yeah, I totally agree that not every one of them should be... But I definitely think there should be some running around.
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Post by uncommonman on Sept 19, 2015 8:09:57 GMT -8
sbloyd if the guards are only level 0-1 how can they stop any higher level monster/player and if they can't why have guards anyway.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 19, 2015 8:36:12 GMT -8
Because the people they're guarding against are level zero too, and are probably armed with sticks or farm implements against the guard's maille armor, shield, and spear. Town guards aren't there to stop "higher level monsters and players". Stopping chimerae, dragons, or bulettes isn't their job, it's keeping the peace. They're cops. They're Jon the Butcher's son, who didn't want to slaughter hogs for a living, but he's built like a plowhorse, get that man a commission in the town guard! It's for heroes like the player characters to go out and stop the wyverns that are stealing sheep from the shepherds up on Gallows Hill.
A level 16 player character against a town guard? Don't make me laugh.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 19, 2015 8:48:16 GMT -8
sbloyd if the guards are only level 0-1 how can they stop any higher level monster/player and if they can't why have guards anyway. A level 16 character is a demigod. Should every town and hamlet train up an army just in case the legendary heroes of the empire blow into town and decide to cause some trouble?
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Post by uncommonman on Sept 19, 2015 9:01:06 GMT -8
Ok I see your point about lvl 16 but what about lower levels, at what level does guards stop being threatening.
I feel that a guard with a crossbow shuld be a life and death obsticle no matter what level the PC is (with exeption for demi-gods and over).
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 19, 2015 9:45:13 GMT -8
Unfortunately there you are butting up against the limitations of Dungeons and Dragons' level based system which is what I was using as my benchmark for this conversation. At a certain point crossbows - unless used en masse - just aren't threatening.
The real threat of a guard is the law. The city guard are the cops. If your PCs cross one, there are other options the guard has than sticking a crossbow bolt in them. Arresting them, for example. They kill the guard? That's an assault on an officer of the King, tantamount to an assault on the King himself. Wanted posters go up. Nobody will treat with them. They have to deal with other heroes trying to bring in the outlaw PCs. .
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starwar
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Post by starwar on Sept 19, 2015 11:51:52 GMT -8
Yeah, I have a country in my game that pays a dragon to watch over their territory. My players just killed a bunch of guards at an outpost. That dragon is going to have to go earn it's pay.
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