sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
|
Post by sbloyd on Sept 19, 2015 11:53:37 GMT -8
Look at the Guards books from Discworld to see how the town guard can deal with odd situations in a fantasy land.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 14:00:35 GMT -8
A question to you who like level based games: Do you have a fixed level for NPC's? If a level 1 character attack a town guard, what is his level? If a level 16 character does the same, what is the guards level? Yes, the level of an NPC is a factor which cannot and does not depend on the level of the players (unless it's a very dangerous world, in which guards should be gaining levels almost as quickly as players do). It really depends on the specific game I'm using, though. If we're talking D&D 3.x, then guards are usually around level 5 - the good ones will have two attacks per round. A group of two to four guards is a real threat to level 1 characters, a significant inconvenience to level 3 characters, and complete fodder to a level 10 party.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 14:07:13 GMT -8
I feel that a guard with a crossbow shuld be a life and death obsticle no matter what level the PC is (with exeption for demi-gods and over). It's always possible to have a level-based system where this statement remains true. D&D is somewhat unique in the disparity between a level 1 character and a level 5 character, especially in terms of HP. With something like Rifts, anyone with a mega-damage weapon can completely annihilate anyone not wearing mega-damage armor, regardless of the level disparity. Or keeping with D&D, your statement could remain true if you define "demi-god" as "anyone capable of surviving maximum damage from a crossbow".
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 20, 2015 8:07:26 GMT -8
Yep sbloyd is on it. The flavor of a 8-10th Pathfinder game can often feel more like a super heroes game than a gritty fantasy. You want a local guard with a crossbow to always be a threat? Play GURPS or Warhammer Fantasy. With D&D and Pathfinder the starting region for the players as level 1 serves as the framework for their progression from zero to hero (if you are focusing on level building). "Remember that inn where that douchebag bartender kicked the shit out of me because I was broke? Well I'm a sixth level WIZARD! now and am back to burn that shit to the ground." (See Power Fantasy gaming...which can be fun for a time). Again, like HourEleven my players are not as concerned with the level progression at this point being 7th level characters and the story is much more paramount.
|
|
starwar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 52
|
Post by starwar on Sept 20, 2015 9:47:33 GMT -8
If a crossbow is always just as dangerous, then isn't a character just as dangerous on day one as day one thousand? Meaning a character can kill a Tarrasque in session 1?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 13:27:12 GMT -8
If a crossbow is always just as dangerous, then isn't a character just as dangerous on day one as day one thousand? Meaning a character can kill a Tarrasque in session 1? To use GURPS as an example, it's entirely possible to make a crossbow deadly, while still making it less deadly to advanced characters than to starting characters. The key is that levels (or whatever advancement mechanism) should primarily mess with accuracy/evasion rather than HP/damage. An untrained peasant with a crossbow skill of 8 can kill a mighty knight with a relevant defense value of 14, by rolling randomly for a hit to the eye and having the knight botch the defense roll, but it's not very likely. The peasant will even mostly fail to hit another untrained peasant, but now most of the failures will come from the attack roll since the defender will rarely block a successful shot. If you advance that peasant up until its crossbow skill is 25 - a trivial feat, if you have a couple of years of down time - then it can suddenly start making called shots to the eye with every attack, and the first one that the knight fails to block will be game over. Meanwhile, that advanced peasant will be able to slaughter untrained peasants left and right, since 90% of attacks will hit and not be dodged. Nobody suggested anything about the Tarrasque dying from a single bolt. That falls into the demi-god clause, of things that should never die in one hit no matter what. And actually, on the topic of big monsters dying to weak characters, the idea that a huge dragon might be taken down by a couple dozen militia with bows was a serious criticism against D&D 5E. Because AC doesn't scale much with level, each of those archers has a non-trivial chance of hitting and dealing ~5 damage, so the dragon is in real trouble if it ever tries a frontal assault on a major city. For things like The Tarrasque, they just make it flat out immune to non-magical weapons, because it is supposed to rampage through major cities like that.
|
|
starwar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 52
|
Post by starwar on Sept 20, 2015 13:58:17 GMT -8
If a crossbow is always just as dangerous, then isn't a character just as dangerous on day one as day one thousand? Meaning a character can kill a Tarrasque in session 1? To use GURPS as an example, it's entirely possible to make a crossbow deadly, while still making it less deadly to advanced characters than to starting characters. The key is that levels (or whatever advancement mechanism) should primarily mess with accuracy/evasion rather than HP/damage. An untrained peasant with a crossbow skill of 8 can kill a mighty knight with a relevant defense value of 14, by rolling randomly for a hit to the eye and having the knight botch the defense roll, but it's not very likely. The peasant will even mostly fail to hit another untrained peasant, but now most of the failures will come from the attack roll since the defender will rarely block a successful shot. If you advance that peasant up until its crossbow skill is 25 - a trivial feat, if you have a couple of years of down time - then it can suddenly start making called shots to the eye with every attack, and the first one that the knight fails to block will be game over. Meanwhile, that advanced peasant will be able to slaughter untrained peasants left and right, since 90% of attacks will hit and not be dodged. And nobody suggested anything about the Tarrasque dying from a single bolt. That falls into the demi-god clause, of things that should never die in one hit no matter what. So the guard with a deadly crossbow would fall, in D&D terms, like a +35 crossbow, or a level 2 guard with level 15 rogue's sneak attack minus the conditions of sneak attack? I am guessing GURPS does not have very high hit points, because in D&D terms a +35 crossbow is absolutely absurd and even that could only drop a level 7 and below character in one shot. And when the level 8 character annihilates the guard the next turn and takes the +35 crossbow your game has just become completely broken. It seems to me a little odd to ask for crossbows to be dangerous throughout and have a can't be one shot demi-god clause. I get it, but maybe I just don't understand GURPS enough.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 14:46:45 GMT -8
So the guard with a deadly crossbow would fall, in D&D terms, like a +35 crossbow, or a level 2 guard with level 15 rogue's sneak attack minus the conditions of sneak attack? I am guessing GURPS does not have very high hit points, because in D&D terms a +35 crossbow is absolutely absurd and even that could only drop a level 7 and below character in one shot. And when the level 8 character annihilates the guard the next turn and takes the +35 crossbow your game has just become completely broken. It seems to me a little odd to ask for crossbows to be dangerous throughout and have a can't be one shot demi-god clause. I get it, but maybe I just don't understand GURPS enough. GURPS is a system where HP and damage doesn't really scale over time. To put it into D&D terms, your total HP are only ever equal to your CON score, except your CON is also equal to your STRENGTH because there are only four stats in the system. A fighter, regardless of level, will have between 10 and 20 HP. The difference between a good fighter and a bad fighter is your chance to hit, and your chance to avoid being hit - bad fighter might hit 40% of the time and avoid 20% of successful attacks made against it, while a good fighter can hit with called shots to the eye at 95% accuracy and avoid 95% of all attacks made against it. A crossbow might deal 1d6+2 damage, which is reduced by DR, and anything that gets through DR is multiplied by x2 since it's piercing damage. If you hit someone in the head, then the skull gives you 2 more points of DR, but anything that gets through that is multiplied by... I want to say x3. If you shoot someone in the eye, then you deal damage directly to the brain, so you bypass the extra DR from the skull. Medieval armor also doesn't cover the eye, so a shot to the eye would deal the full (1d6+2) x 6 against someone who probably has 15 HP. A shot to the eye will always instantly kill a fighter of any level. The reason why a crossbow can't one-shot The Tarrasque is because The Tarrasque has Strength 70 and 70 HP, and probably has 2 points of DR on its eyes (compared to the DR 10 on its torso), reducing the damage from an eye-shot to a manageable 6d6. That's probably enough to blind it, though - GURPS tracks damage to individual body parts, and the eyes don't have very many HP.
|
|
starwar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 52
|
Post by starwar on Sept 20, 2015 14:56:33 GMT -8
So the guard with a deadly crossbow would fall, in D&D terms, like a +35 crossbow, or a level 2 guard with level 15 rogue's sneak attack minus the conditions of sneak attack? I am guessing GURPS does not have very high hit points, because in D&D terms a +35 crossbow is absolutely absurd and even that could only drop a level 7 and below character in one shot. And when the level 8 character annihilates the guard the next turn and takes the +35 crossbow your game has just become completely broken. It seems to me a little odd to ask for crossbows to be dangerous throughout and have a can't be one shot demi-god clause. I get it, but maybe I just don't understand GURPS enough. GURPS is a system where HP and damage doesn't really scale over time. To put it into D&D terms, your total HP are only ever equal to your CON score, except your CON is also equal to your STRENGTH because there are only four stats in the system. A fighter, regardless of level, will have between 10 and 20 HP. The difference between a good fighter and a bad fighter is your chance to hit, and your chance to avoid being hit - bad fighter might hit 40% of the time and avoid 20% of successful attacks made against it, while a good fighter can hit with called shots to the eye at 95% accuracy and avoid 95% of all attacks made against it. A crossbow might deal 1d6+2 damage, which is reduced by DR, and anything that gets through DR is multiplied by x2 since it's piercing damage. If you hit someone in the head, then the skull gives you 2 more points of DR, but anything that gets through that is multiplied by... I want to say x3. If you shoot someone in the eye, then you deal damage directly to the brain, so you bypass the extra DR from the skull. Medieval armor also doesn't cover the eye, so a shot to the eye would deal the full (1d6+2) x 6 against someone who probably has 15 HP. A shot to the eye will always instantly kill a fighter of any level. The reason why a crossbow can't one-shot The Tarrasque is because The Tarrasque has Strength 70 and 70 HP, and probably has 2 points of DR on its eyes (compared to the DR 10 on its torso), reducing the damage from an eye-shot to a manageable 6d6. That's probably enough to blind it, though - GURPS tracks damage to individual body parts, and the eyes don't have very many HP. I got it, I took the word clause too literal.
|
|