grimm
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 28
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Post by grimm on Jan 22, 2016 2:58:36 GMT -8
Here's my problem.
I come from a background of games like L5R, Exalted, One-Roll, etc. All of these games are point-buy games - you get a few XP here and there, and you can immediately use those XP to buy something to improve your PC. You can spend a small amount on a minor skill increase, or save your pennies and eventually buy a Stat boost or an Advantage. For thespian types like myself who like to RP the learning of things before buying them with XP, it really helps me feel a sense of my character's hard work paying off.
But recently I've found myself (by popular demand of the players rather than personal preference) GMing my first game using a DnD system (5e). While my players are still at a fairly low level, I am already finding myself annoyed by how little feeling of growth their characters have. Because all of their character improvements come in chunks when they level up, there are these long spans where (mechanically) they don't improve at anything. Not only that, but because of the ways proficiencies work they are (and will likely remain) very limited in terms of what they get good at over the course of the game. Worst of all, I think, is the fact that the leveling up that does occur happens almost entirely off-screen, since levelling up at the table is both cumbersome and difficult to do while actively RPing.
I find this intensely unsatisfying, and I suspect my players will soon feel the same.
Now the question becomes: what can I do about this? My first instinct is to bring in some kind of skill points system (like the one in Pathfinder, but not tied to class/levelling), or to find some way for them to buy/earn new proficiencies. That said, I'm wary of tinkering with the mechanics on this level when I haven't played a lot of DnD, and have never GMed it. I can see a lot of ways a concept like this could spiral quickly out of control.
So I put it to you, wise and worldly Jackers. Have any of your tried anything like this? Can any of you offer me some advice about how something like this could be made to work within a 5e framework?
Anything people can add would be a huge help. Thanks!
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nanoboy
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 142
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Post by nanoboy on Jan 22, 2016 10:36:23 GMT -8
I come from a similar background: primarily GURPS but also a bit of Fate and a few other systems. I've been running 5E for a bit, though, and I like it. Thus, here is my advice: leave well enough alone. Just let the characters level. When you play D&D, you're not modelling the ways that people actually gain skills and experience; you're playing D&D. It's a game steeped in and built upon traditions.
Levels are also the firmament of the game. Digging down, you'll find that the most basic parts of D&D relate to levels, so if you take that away, I'm not even sure you can call what you are playing Dungeons and Dragons anymore. If you want to play a point-buy system, there are a lot of them out there, and many of them do fantasy wonderfully. They're just not Dungeons and Dragons.
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grimm
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 28
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Post by grimm on Jan 22, 2016 11:15:02 GMT -8
D&D is ALSO predicated on the idea of getting tons of magical loot to make up for their slow-burning character advancement scheme. Since I'm not planning on handing out a whole lot of magical loot, I think it's sensible to offer something to replace it, and I think skill improvements are the ticket.
This isn't really a question of whether or not I'm GOING to do it. It's a question of HOW.
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grimm
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 28
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Post by grimm on Jan 22, 2016 12:24:28 GMT -8
( To be clear, this would not replace normal levelling, but rather be added in as an additional way to improve between levels.)
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Post by Forresst on Jan 22, 2016 12:36:11 GMT -8
Just off the top of my head, you could maybe crib a little from the Elder Scrolls method of git gud: If they win a fight, they get a fight point. X amount of fight points gets them a +1 bonus to one of their weapons/armour/whatever thing helps them fight good. They persuade an NPC to do a thing? They get a social point. X amount of social points gives them a bonus to talky skills. They solve a puzzle or figure out something kind of puzzle-y? They get a brains point. X amount of brains points turn them into hungry zombies I mean gives them advantage on like int-based rolls or something.
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Post by uncommonman on Jan 22, 2016 14:16:08 GMT -8
Item specific bonuses can be a way, start out with a small negative while the players are using a new item (weapon etc.) and slowly turn that in to a bonus after heavy use.
Think of it like a skill specific to that item, that might give some fun roleplay opportunities when they start looking for a new weapon to use for a long time or start naming items thay have (+1 if the item is named by the player is also a possibility).
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Post by weaselcreature on Jan 22, 2016 15:57:04 GMT -8
Thus, here is my advice: leave well enough alone. Just let the characters level. When you play D&D, you're not modelling the ways that people actually gain skills and experience; you're playing D&D. It's a game steeped in and built upon traditions. While I haven't played 5E yet, I've played all other D&Ds (except 4) and pretty much agree with this. It's how the system is built, and systems differ. That being said, if you really want to get some slow-burn progression I have a couple of thoughts. 1: give them some skill points applicable to things they've done/knowledges they use, but limit it to things like knowledge, professions, crafting (if those things exist in 5e) and not some of the major skills (perception, stealth, etc.) 2: break down the "leveling" in half. At half level, let them take some of the bonuses for the next level Again...haven't played it, so don't know how applicable my ideas are.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 4:19:32 GMT -8
Ditch D&D like the sad excuse it is ASAP. It can't be fixed. Level and class are D&D. By the time you house rule it so that it works you could have just used a better system to begin with. I reccomend warhammer fantasy roleplay (3rd Ed) if you like a more incremental game that isn't a generic rule set. Game of thrones also has a good system, but none of the major fantasy hallmarks (dwarves, elves, accessible magic, etc).
If you are familiar with FFGs Star Wars you will recognize the style of play in WHFRP. Good luck with your game/group.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jan 24, 2016 5:07:44 GMT -8
What stevensw said. D&D is all about levels. Yes you could house-rule it, but what's the point? It's why back in the the early eighties, we switched th the better system, Runequest.
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Post by Kainguru on Jan 24, 2016 5:54:58 GMT -8
It depends on what you and your group 'get' out of playing RPG's. The general zeitgeist of HappyJacks is that mechanics should drop into the background in favour of the story. What gains do you make you ask?: advancing the story, interacting with the world, making a difference within that world, acquiring influence etc as result of your actions, acquiring wealth and magic that supplement what characters can do . . . they shouldn't look at a character sheet and ask 'what can my character do?' they should ask 'what does my character want to do given the situation' and then look at the character sheet to adjudicate the possibility of success. DnD 5e is fast and loose enough to do this. Despite it's criticisms the popularity of DnD has as much to do with the fact that it can support very RP heavy play styles, because of the leveling system rather than in spite of it. In the ADnD era, at higher levels, there could be a long stretches of game play between levels . . . yet those old campaigns frequently went on for years of real time (some are still running after 20+ years). The leveling system, though artifical, supports this as it means the players invest more in the story and less on their character stats blocks during those campaign arcs . . . the acquisition of new abilities became special events in themselves (costly too if one adhered to the old training cost rules). ADnD 2e had few optional variants to leveling that might, with a lot of effort, be shoe horned into 5e; I'm thinking more along the lines of the Players Option Books at the end of the 2e run (almost and entirely new game in itself, but very easy to break without cautious oversight and I think it would easily break the likes of 5e if shoe horned in without great care) If the measure of 'success' for your players is changing numbers on their character sheets then maybe they'd feel more comfortable with the likes of DnD 4e - which is more like a MMORPG with rapid leveling and ability gains etc. If this is the case then don't go anywhere near Traveller, your group would hate it - since character stats and abilities change very little after initial character generation . . . but sometimes they get to pay off the mortgage on the ship and go truly freelance (NB: I know, I know, Mongoose did allow for some character advancement and original Traveller did have a tiny caveat but both are quite rare and extraordinarily slow compared to DnD and other games) Aaron PS: keep watching the WoTC website, they regularly release alternate rules for 5e - as sort of alpha test documents
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Post by ilina on Jan 26, 2016 2:56:04 GMT -8
i recommend Cypher. you can spend Experience on indvidual perks in groups of 4, but Cypher still has the downside of being a class based game. which is where my next best recommendation, Savage Worlds Comes in. Savage Worlds, you can Spend XP on small things as long as you can justify it. the big issue. is some things you haven't justified, you will have to spend downtime seeking a trainer for, plus, based on the magic items and implants systems. something akin to those could be devised for a learning system. for example, the implants in the Sci Fi Companion could be turned into Trained Abilities and the Training takes up an amount of Education based on your smarts die but still requires money. in other words, reskin the implants rules.
if you have to use 5e: there are rules for Training Tools, Languages, Skills or Weapons During Downtime, taking a gold piece per day and a number of days equal to 250 divided by your current intelligence SCORE: Rounded down. but these just get you proficiency. so if you have long periods of downtime. you could theoretically speed things up. or you could pay a Trainer to Add their Intelligence Score to yours before dividing to speed up the training for a DM arranged fee. so a character with 10 intelligence takes 25 days to train a skill. but a trainer giving pointers with say 15 intelligence, could reduce that to 10 days instead.
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nanoboy
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 142
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Post by nanoboy on Jan 26, 2016 8:59:59 GMT -8
If you want to play a classes fantasy game, a number of other systems handle that well. GURPS and Savage Worlds both do a good job of it. I hear that Hero does, and I suspect that Fate handles fantasy well. I'm not personally familiar with any points-based systems specifically designed for fantasy, but I can't imagine that none exist.
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Post by ilina on Jan 26, 2016 17:58:48 GMT -8
Trust me: Cypher, you spend XP on benefits in Groups of 2-4 and are expected to gain 2-4 XP per session. some benefits are region specific, while others actually provide lasting benefit. for example, you could spend 2 XP to say you grew up in that specific mountain range and say you know how to climb THOSE mountains. it doesn't mean you are proficient in climbing, just that you can climb mountains in a very specific mountain range.
but Cypher lets you do anything without having to be trained anyway. training just makes tasks easier.
i'm an [insert Adjective here] [insert Noun here] who [insert Action here]
for Example, i'm an Adorable Shaman who Harnesses the Elements or i'm a Clever Engineer who Builds Bridges
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Post by Kainguru on Jan 27, 2016 2:00:07 GMT -8
Just a clarification - DnD 5e lets you attempt anything as well . . . Skills just make it easier. The same goes for Traveller and, thinking about it, ODnD too. Cypher hasn't invented anything new there. Rather a very old convention was made explicit - more a compensatory measure to help ease MMO's over to the inherent differences in tabletop (a necessity really, bit like having those labels on petrol cans now days saying 'don't store in a stove' ) Aaron
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jan 27, 2016 7:11:21 GMT -8
And this is why I don't venture into the 5E forum very much. A simple question leads to gratuitous D&D-bashing. Why do people who hate the game so much hang out in the forum trying to talk other people out of playing it?
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