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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 2:56:54 GMT -8
As the player your only input of information about the world is the game master and his descriptions and props. In that way the GM is similar to a movie camera, deciding what you can and cannot see. If given the option, wouldn't you always want a better camera or camera man? Well, that is how many games treat perception, and that is a shame.
Rolling is normally reserved for adjudication when a result is uncertain. In this light I want to examine if perceiving your surroundings is something we should expect to have as an unknown result or as an action. Very few skills in RPG's fill a similar niche in the game world, informing you what access you have to information about it. An empathy skill would be the closest in my mind followed by knowledge or lore skills.
One reason I think perception should be something you do is that it separates playing RPG's from watching a movie. In a movie you are forced to see only what they want you to see. In an RPG you have the option to ask questions, thereby directing the camera man onto the object of your desire. When you relegate this control to a roll you give up your control of that camera man to the dice. It may not matter that you look in the right place, because you don't notice whatever was important there. More damaging is the autopilot type function of the GM calling for the roll unprompted, thereby putting the player back into the role of the passive viewer. I for one don't want to be a passive viewer in games.
So where do rolls belong in all this? I suspect that rolls make more sense in an interpretive role. Say I spot red clay on someone's boot. I may or may not know where that clay comes from. I may even guess incorrectly. Spotting the clay in the first place is on me to look for nthat kind of detail, but spotting it should not be an issue unless there is some kind of condition present which would make it hard to detect. Say for example I only see the suspect in pitch black darkness, then I may very well never spot the red clay. This has less to do with how good a detective I am and more to do with how good my eyes are. No matter how much I might try to improve my vision (short of correction or surgery), there is nothing I can do. How well you see is not a skill you can improve like shooting or running.
When I play a detective, part of inhabiting that character is perceiving like one. It's the mindset of a Sherlock type to look for these details. While I could take a high perception score to simulate that mindset, I find that it is more fun to play a detective than to be spoon fed whatever information your GM has determined is important. By asking questions I can prompt the GM to think about things he might not have considered. Red clay on the boots might not have been a clue until I asked about any dirt or grime on the man.
in the end this comes down to a question of choice. Would you rather roll your tactics skill or play out a tactical scenario? To me, acting will always be better than rolling. I love my dice, but I sure wish they'd get out of my way.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Apr 9, 2016 22:32:59 GMT -8
Investigative skills in Gumshoe - no roll, just do 'em
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 22:59:18 GMT -8
Investigative skills in Gumshoe - no roll, just do 'em Eh.. Gumshoe gives you critical clues automatically if you have the skill and asks for a spend to get none critical clues. So in some cases it's autopilot for getting the clues and in others I have to bribe the GM with points to get them. While I like that gumshoe forces you to switch tactics and bring in multiple people instead of using one skill over and over, it doesn't feel so much like something I am doing. Gumshoe puts the importance on figuring out what the clues mean and not on finding them (which is why spends seem out of place). In this way you don't get screwed by a bad die roll (which is a large improvement over many games). The part I take some umbrage with is the idea of critical or essential clues. That concept assumes that the GM knows what information I need to solve the mystery. This runs the danger of making the game a predetermined railroad of clues. Furthermore, I take no satisfaction in uncovering a clue that was given to me on a silver platter. Mysteries are one of the few areas of gaming where I can truly project myself into the story through my sleuthing. I dont want to roll or even spend to find or put the clues together. I want to roleplay it just like I want to play in the social scenes, not roll my diplomacy (or make spends for it).
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Post by uncommonman on Apr 9, 2016 23:19:21 GMT -8
As the player your only input of information about the world is the game master and his descriptions and props. In that way the GM is similar to a movie camera, deciding what you can and cannot see. If given the option, wouldn't you always want a better camera or camera man? Well, that is how many games treat perception, and that is a shame. Rolling is normally reserved for adjudication when a result is uncertain. In this light I want to examine if perceiving your surroundings is something we should expect to have as an unknown result or as an action. Very few skills in RPG's fill a similar niche in the game world, informing you what access you have to information about it. An empathy skill would be the closest in my mind followed by knowledge or lore skills. One reason I think perception should be something you do is that it separates playing RPG's from watching a movie. In a movie you are forced to see only what they want you to see. In an RPG you have the option to ask questions, thereby directing the camera man onto the object of your desire. When you relegate this control to a roll you give up your control of that camera man to the dice. It may not matter that you look in the right place, because you don't notice whatever was important there. More damaging is the autopilot type function of the GM calling for the roll unprompted, thereby putting the player back into the role of the passive viewer. I for one don't want to be a passive viewer in games. So where do rolls belong in all this? I suspect that rolls make more sense in an interpretive role. Say I spot red clay on someone's boot. I may or may not know where that clay comes from. I may even guess incorrectly. Spotting the clay in the first place is on me to look for nthat kind of detail, but spotting it should not be an issue unless there is some kind of condition present which would make it hard to detect. Say for example I only see the suspect in pitch black darkness, then I may very well never spot the red clay. This has less to do with how good a detective I am and more to do with how good my eyes are. No matter how much I might try to improve my vision (short of correction or surgery), there is nothing I can do. How well you see is not a skill you can improve like shooting or running. When I play a detective, part of inhabiting that character is perceiving like one. It's the mindset of a Sherlock type to look for these details. While I could take a high perception score to simulate that mindset, I find that it is more fun to play a detective than to be spoon fed whatever information your GM has determined is important. By asking questions I can prompt the GM to think about things he might not have considered. Red clay on the boots might not have been a clue until I asked about any dirt or grime on the man. in the end this comes down to a question of choice. Would you rather roll your tactics skill or play out a tactical scenario? To me, acting will always be better than rolling. I love my dice, but I sure wish they'd get out of my way. I think the Gm is more like the director of the movie and the perception is the camera, if you know someone irl that is very observant you know how large the difference can be between a good and bad roll. Look at this video and make a perception roll: youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Apr 9, 2016 23:44:18 GMT -8
Eh.. Gumshoe gives you critical clues automatically if you have the skill and asks for a spend to get none critical clues. So in some cases it's autopilot for getting the clues and in others I have to bribe the GM with points to get them. While I like that gumshoe forces you to switch tactics and bring in multiple people instead of using one skill over and over, it doesn't feel so much like something I am doing. Gumshoe puts the importance on figuring out what the clues mean and not on finding them (which is why spends seem out of place). In this way you don't get screwed by a bad die roll (which is a large improvement over many games). The part I take some umbrage with is the idea of critical or essential clues. That concept assumes that the GM knows what information I need to solve the mystery. This runs the danger of making the game a predetermined railroad of clues. Furthermore, I take no satisfaction in uncovering a clue that was given to me on a silver platter. Mysteries are one of the few areas of gaming where I can truly project myself into the story through my sleuthing. I dont want to roll or even spend to find or put the clues together. I want to roleplay it just like I want to play in the social scenes, not roll my diplomacy (or make spends for it). You can play gumshoe exactly the way you want, the GM not handing out clues just 'cos you have the skill, but waiting until you do the right thing/look in the right place/ask the right questions. The handing 'em out/core clue option is only there because many players are not so proactive. Even with that type of player (in my experience), once they get in the flow they start roleplaying their sleuthing.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Apr 9, 2016 23:47:24 GMT -8
uncommonman yup, I saw the gorilla and counted the passes, all without dice
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 23:48:32 GMT -8
uncommonman Ummm, so a better or worse camera would improve your chances of counting the passes better? I also don't think changing the shot would make this any easier. This video falls into the same catagory as seeing in the dark with a caveat. You might be able to get better at counting, unlike seeing in the dark. What makes them the same is an element of uncertainty. The question at hand is what you would roll to resolve that uncertainty. One reason I like FFG's Star Wars is that they make a switch away from your ability to perceive to your ability to pay attention. The skill is called vigilance. If we assume everyone has similar ability to see in the dark, the person who wil spot an ambush will be the person who is alert. That is why vigilance is based on willpower, because it is not about how well you see, but how ready you are to see. Likewise when counting the passes and noticing the gorilla, how well you see is less of a factor than your mental quickness. Many games define intelligence as the ability to learn or process information. So it is not what you know, but how quick you are mentally. In a similar vein is memory. When you are in front of a person you can ask all the questions you want about their appearance. If you want to ask for a detail after the fact then memory comes in. That thing you may have noticed but wasn't significant to you, until now! That would also be something I could see rolling.
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Post by uncommonman on Apr 10, 2016 0:50:48 GMT -8
uncommonman Ummm, so a better or worse camera would improve your chances of counting the passes better? This shot has a static camera and therefore you use your own perception, a PC would have had a different shot depending on the roll: A normal roll = you count the passes. A good roll = you see the gorilla. A perfect roll = you get both passes and the gorilla.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 0:59:27 GMT -8
uncommonman Ummm, so a better or worse camera would improve your chances of counting the passes better? This shot has a static camera and therefore you use your own perception, a PC would have had a different shot depending on the roll: A normal roll = you count the passes. A good roll = you see the gorilla. A perfect roll = you get both passes and the gorilla. I don't really grok your view in all this. Feels like I'm missing something.
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Post by uncommonman on Apr 10, 2016 2:52:11 GMT -8
@stevensw in a RPG you can as the GM for moee information and say what you are looking for but in a movie you have to look at what the camera shows.
In my opinion a perception roll is to determine what details that are normally un noticeable are found by to PC.
The gorilla/passes video is an analogy of a normal/good roll, the video is made to fool you in to counting passes just as a for example hidden passage is hidden from the PC in an RPG.
Hope that is clearer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 3:01:40 GMT -8
@stevensw in a RPG you can as the GM for moee information and say what you are looking for but in a movie you have to look at what the camera shows. In my opinion a perception roll is to determine what details that are normally un noticeable are found by to PC. The gorilla/passes video is an analogy of a normal/good roll, the video is made to fool you in to counting passes just as a for example hidden passage is hidden from the PC in an RPG. Hope that is clearer. And in so doing you remove the point of asking the GM questions and telling him what you do. If the roll is what matters then why tell him what I and looking for or how I am searching? Even worse you could be creating another point of failure by requiring the player do the right thing and then make the right roll. Consider this. A player can either search the right area or not. Then they can pass or fail their check. If we make that into a little chart, only 1/4 of our chart shows the player succeeding while the other 3/4 end in failure. Further, any time multiple people can attempt a check it is likely someone will make it by pure luck. Thus instead of rewarding canny players you hand out information to the group nearly every time.
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Post by uncommonman on Apr 10, 2016 3:28:29 GMT -8
@stevensw in a RPG you can as the GM for moee information and say what you are looking for but in a movie you have to look at what the camera shows. In my opinion a perception roll is to determine what details that are normally un noticeable are found by to PC. The gorilla/passes video is an analogy of a normal/good roll, the video is made to fool you in to counting passes just as a for example hidden passage is hidden from the PC in an RPG. Hope that is clearer. And in so doing you remove the point of asking the GM questions and telling him what you do. If the roll is what matters then why tell him what I and looking for or how I am searching? Even worse you could be creating another point of failure by requiring the player do the right thing and then make the right roll. Consider this. A player can either search the right area or not. Then they can pass or fail their check. If we make that into a little chart, only 1/4 of our chart shows the player succeeding while the other 3/4 end in failure. Further, any time multiple people can attempt a check it is likely someone will make it by pure luck. Thus instead of rewarding canny players you hand out information to the group nearly every time. I personally don't like perception rolls but I think they are better than not using rolls for perception. If there are no rolls there is a chance that the GM gives to much or to little information no matter what the players say they look for, rolls are the best way to independent of personal biases determine what will happen. I think the risk of losing the game aspect of RPG for the advantage of not using the perception skill makes rolls better than non rolls. Meta gaming, GM favorites and spiteful GMs will be a problem in the long run. "you just said you looked at his boots not that you looked under his boots so you don't see the red mudd clue"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 3:31:29 GMT -8
uncommonman If the GM is out to get you he can pull the same bs reguardless of rules or die rolls. All of a sudden all the dc's are higher for you or the GM doesn't give you a roll because you didn't specify the bottom of the boots. Rolling won't fix that kind of problem.
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Post by uncommonman on Apr 10, 2016 4:12:33 GMT -8
uncommonman If the GM is out to get you he can pull the same bs reguardless of rules or die rolls. All of a sudden all the dc's are higher for you or the GM doesn't give you a roll because you didn't specify the bottom of the boots. Rolling won't fix that kind of problem. No not fix but it will stop unconscious biases.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 4:17:27 GMT -8
uncommonman If the GM is out to get you he can pull the same bs reguardless of rules or die rolls. All of a sudden all the dc's are higher for you or the GM doesn't give you a roll because you didn't specify the bottom of the boots. Rolling won't fix that kind of problem. No not fix but it will stop unconscious biases. I've never worried about unconscious bias before. It may be an American thing, but when I've passed off my GM before they usually let me know so in a not so subtle way. "Funny that all the bad guys are attacking you and ignoring everyone else, dick." Biases were often out in the open or not a big deal. I would still rather be the victim of unconscious bias than the victim of a fickle d20.
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