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Post by ayslyn on Sept 20, 2016 19:36:17 GMT -8
What edition are you talking about?
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Post by ilina on Sept 20, 2016 20:37:44 GMT -8
i was going to say spellcloak came from an independently published third party splatbook for D&D 2nd edition. but really. my Drama Club Supervisor photocopied 1,000 pages worth of 2nd edition homebrew content 500 times, put each set of homebrew in a 3 ring binder and sold each "Book" for 25 dollars each and all it really was, was a bunch of classes and kits crafted by the students that were somehow more balanced than the complete book of elves will ever be. each book had a production cost of 15 dollars. 10 for the thousand sheets of paper, 3 for the binders, and 2 for the share of ink, so he made 5,000 dollars that way to continue running RPGs in school.
the copy store in the area was cheap. especially for teachers. plus, it is easy to use primary schoolers to write and test game mechanics in a manner akin to how kindergarteners are used to craft wallets for the school bazaar if you call it an art project. 50 students in some kind of Organized Play Setting that was the club, wrote a combined thousand pages worth of new races, classes, kits, equipment and all sorts of stuff, using the chart for balancing 2e custom classes by their XP totals. all 500 copies sold at the school bazaar, and we still had the original for our club. we had 10 tables of 5 students each with an Aide working as a dungeon master. plus, students were able to take their characters from one table to another. we lied to the district about it being a drama class, in reality, it was an RPG club. in the 1990s.
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 20, 2016 21:54:26 GMT -8
So... Again... Not RAW.
You can't blame the system for someone's homebrew stuff.
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Post by ilina on Sept 20, 2016 22:06:20 GMT -8
So... Again... Not RAW. You can't blame the system for someone's homebrew stuff. at least the spellcloak wasn't as broken as the bladesinger. i would use that folder again, but it is heavily decayed with age and currently not legible.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 20, 2016 22:12:38 GMT -8
The spellsinger had narrative limitations - that was the problem because DM's frequently wouldn't enforce them or players play to them. Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 20, 2016 22:15:59 GMT -8
Eh. I didn't really remember the Bladesinger, so I looked it up.... Doesn't seem all that bad to me, but a poor GM will allow it to get out of hand easily by not enforcing it's hindrances..... Which, again, is not the fault of the system.
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Post by ilina on Sept 20, 2016 22:51:38 GMT -8
narrative drawbacks do nothing to balance mechanical advantages. mechanical advantages above the normal assumptions should be balanced by mechanical drawbacks of similar importance. this is the same reason a -2 charisma penalty did not equal a +2 constitution bonus on a race with huge bonuses to every important saving throw they make and a massive defensive bonus against an extremely common mid level creature type.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 20, 2016 22:57:12 GMT -8
narrative drawbacks do nothing to balance mechanical advantages. mechanical advantages above the normal assumptions should be balanced by mechanical drawbacks of similar importance. this is the same reason a -2 charisma penalty did not equal a +2 constitution bonus on a race with huge bonuses to every important saving throw they make and a massive defensive bonus against an extremely common mid level creature type. This is why a lot of systems back the narrative drawback with rules that "trigger" it.
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Post by ilina on Sept 20, 2016 23:08:09 GMT -8
narrative drawbacks do nothing to balance mechanical advantages. mechanical advantages above the normal assumptions should be balanced by mechanical drawbacks of similar importance. this is the same reason a -2 charisma penalty did not equal a +2 constitution bonus on a race with huge bonuses to every important saving throw they make and a massive defensive bonus against an extremely common mid level creature type. This is why a lot of systems back the narrative drawback with rules that "trigger" it. essentially. a trigger is a requirement and at the same time, the trigger usually requires an incentive for the players to not ignore it. which usually amounts to the equivalent of a scene's worth of experience points or some kind of consumable reroll token. the best trigger systems give the reward each time triggered instead of simply giving a lump sum more resources at character creation.
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maxinstuff
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Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 20, 2016 23:42:27 GMT -8
This is why a lot of systems back the narrative drawback with rules that "trigger" it. essentially. a trigger is a requirement and at the same time, the trigger usually requires an incentive for the players to not ignore it. which usually amounts to the equivalent of a scene's worth of experience points or some kind of consumable reroll token. GURPS for example. If you take the disadvantage kleptomaniac, and you role play that disad, all good. But let's say you're at a fancy dinner, the GM might ask you to make a will roll to resist the urge to pocket the cutlery.
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Post by ilina on Sept 20, 2016 23:49:25 GMT -8
essentially. a trigger is a requirement and at the same time, the trigger usually requires an incentive for the players to not ignore it. which usually amounts to the equivalent of a scene's worth of experience points or some kind of consumable reroll token. GURPS for example. If you take the disadvantage kleptomaniac, and you role play that disad, all good. But let's say you're at a fancy dinner, the GM might ask you to make a will roll to resist the urge to pocket the cutlery. gets kind of cartoony when you trigger the same hindrance in every scene. especially several times in one scene.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 21, 2016 1:26:40 GMT -8
Narrative drawbacks are a standard - misbehave, don't hand over your Church tithe, etc etc loose your Paladinhood. Wanting to mechanically balance everything is missing the point - because everyone is the same by being equally effective when you roll the dice . . . You miss out on a lot of RP opportunity. Take traveller : it's purely luck of the draw what sort of character you get - super effective or a wastrel who spent 4 terms mining an asteroid, lost a limb and has several enemies to boot. Aaron
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maxinstuff
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Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 21, 2016 1:52:17 GMT -8
Narrative drawbacks are a standard - misbehave, don't hand over your Church tithe, etc etc loose your Paladinhood. Wanting to mechanically balance everything is missing the point - because everyone is the same by being equally effective when you roll the dice . . . You miss out on a lot of RP opportunity. Take traveller : it's purely luck of the draw what sort of character you get - super effective or a wastrel who spent 4 terms mining an asteroid, lost a limb and has several enemies to boot. Aaron Yeah I kinda like that Traveller character gen eschews balance. Well, it is TECHNICALLY balanced, but the outcomes certainly are not We are drifting a bit though..... that's it! Swords and Wizardry! It has less of them HP's.
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Post by Probie Tim on Sept 21, 2016 7:32:22 GMT -8
This would have been a house rule. It was not RAW. Yep, experience bonus was for having high attributes related to class. Yup, and yup. From the second edition revised Player's Handbook:
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Post by Probie Tim on Sept 21, 2016 7:39:45 GMT -8
AD&D second edition, especially the "Complete" handbooks and the Skills and Powers book, got completely out of hand towards the end of TSR. But the base system is good.
Good 2E GMs are very particular as to what they allow in their games from those books.
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