tomes
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Post by tomes on Sept 14, 2016 10:12:10 GMT -8
It felt weird and uncomfortable and I had to think about it all the time which made the game difficult to play. The thing is, it's really not more to do than any other game, it's just different stuff and that's what makes it an issue for Stork I think. The stuff intrudes on his consciousness to a degree that rips him out of immersion. At least that's how it seems to me. That's the funny thing about "immersion", is that when people say a system breaks them from immersion, I wonder how often it is intrinsic to the system itself. I mean, I feel like D&D breaks immersion for me all the time, but it's not so much due to me not being familiar with the system, but that the various rules have me interact with the world in special (rule specific / crunchy) touch-points, that I don't particularly enjoy. Some GMs have made that more palatable. I feel like GURPs would be similar (due to crunch), but then I've played in GURPs games with mook and it has felt nothing but immersive, in the way he's obfuscated the system from me. Hmm... perhaps it's not just that the system is new, but that either GM isn't obfuscating in a way that works for you (the player), or that you aren't wanted to be protected from the system (you really want to try and figure it out) and that prevents you from then immersing in the system. I've played in a few Protocol and Praxis games by Jim Pinto, and find them extremely immersive as far as role-playing. But then played in one in the last con where a friend kept asking to clarify rules and was confused by them. It took everyone out of immersion constantly and made the game drag. I didn't feel like that was the fault of the system, necessarily, but if it was my first time playing, I would've thought that the system was just broken and could easily come to the conclusion that "it breaks immersion". It seems like immersion is some combination of GM and player (and inter-player) synchronicity that the rules try not to invade, but facilitate. How very social a hobby we have. Huh. Rambling makes me reconsider game systems I haven't enjoyed as "non-immersive", now. (Was going to originally respond to original post, but I got rambly, and decided to start a new one... and maybe people have something interesting to contribute here)
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Post by mook on Sept 14, 2016 10:22:26 GMT -8
I am happy to be your GURPS prophylactic, tomes I've been noodling this a little bit since realizing in the last few cons that having players GURPS-speak to me actually breaks my immersion in the story. Like, going around the table for turns and getting "I fly at the werewolf in a blind rage," "I run away as fast as I can," or "I level the pistol at her head and wait for the perfect shot" doesn't do that, even though I'm translating the statements into GURPSese. But if the players say things like "I make an All-Out Attack (Strong) at the werewolf," "I Move my full 6 hexes away," or "I Aim this turn to get the Acc bonus next turn, at -5 for a Skull shot," then it becomes much more like playing Hero Quest or Talisman or something -- still fun, but not really narratively immersive.
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Post by Probie Tim on Sept 14, 2016 11:58:41 GMT -8
Personally, I think every game system breaks immersion. Even Fate or Fudge or PbtA games. Every time you have to reach for dice or chips or whatever, immersion is broken.
But that's OK, I think. That's the "game" part of "role playing game". What's important, I think, is that once immersion is broken by game mechanics, and the game mechanics are dealt with, that you re-immerse yourself into the "role playing" part of "role playing game".
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Post by mook on Sept 14, 2016 15:41:14 GMT -8
This is also a (small) reason I prefer one system to many... the more well-worn the grooves are, the less you notice the needle on 'em. Like, when you drive the same route to and from work every day until it becomes purely mechanical, second nature, you don't even think about it. It's just there, it just happens. That's what GURPS rules eventually become (or Hero, or Fate, or Og, or...) -- background noise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 23:29:19 GMT -8
I think the important parts of immersion are starting and ending with the story in any adjudication. One thing I like about PbtA is that the action you perform is made clear by the narrative. Because other games break down actions to a smaller scale, it can be harder to tell if it is a normal attack or a full out attack based on descriptions. Not an insurmountable hurdle, but it exists. The bigger issue is that many systems don't make the GM's externalize the effects of the actions upon the story. Maybe the monster roars in pain as you strike it, but there is no real mechanical or narrative effect to hp loss. Compare that to other games where you take a blow to the leg and a bunch of wounds and you end up crawling on the ground, your leg in too much pain to stand upon.
If in real life I ever shot someone and they simply growled at the pain and then proceeded to try and kill me, I would shit my pants. When that happens in D&D it is considered descriptive, instead of terrifying. The game doesn't force that return to the narrative. There is a lot of of, "everything is the same as before, continue". I want every action to feel meaningful. Otherwise, why bother? How can anyone feel immersed when it tak five minutes to get your turn where nothing of substance happens?
The issue I find people have with FATE is that they want to rush to the end. They want the killing blow and don't realize that they need to position for that blow first. You need to build up mechanical momentum with create advantage so you can finally get that attack that will cripple the guy or end the fight. You need to create scene aspects that will hinder your opponent. The entire song and dance is about building up to that moment.
Rather than just stabbing at a man I am fighting, I might first circle around to put the light into his eyes so he can't attack me effectively or defend well. Then I might try to tackle him to the ground. Then I might try to get a knife to his throat. FInally at this point I might go for the actual blow and use all my built up invokes to force his surrender or deliver the killing strike. I might use a different skill each time as I'm building up my momentum. Its not D&D where you push X to swing your sword every round. That might work on the lowliest of mooks, but not on the opponents with real power behind them.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
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Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
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Post by fredrix on Sept 14, 2016 23:43:43 GMT -8
Yeah, that what I love about Fate, the mechanics encourage you to be more narrative about combat. I also share your love for Cortex+ Firefly, but this is one thing I don't think Cortex+ manages to do as well as Fate.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 14, 2016 23:53:26 GMT -8
I personally think that a large portion of immersion comes down to buy-in.
That is, if you accept the basic assumptions of the rules and the setting and of the characterisations taking place, with minimal cognitive dissonance, then you will experience immersion.
This means that a given game may create immersion for some people and not for others, and this may well be out of the player's and the GM's control.
I know that's a cop-out but that's what I really feel it comes down to here.
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 15, 2016 8:02:23 GMT -8
I don't think that it's a cop out at all.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Sept 15, 2016 8:54:42 GMT -8
I think the important parts of immersion are starting and ending with the story in any adjudication. One thing I like about PbtA is that the action you perform is made clear by the narrative. Very much this. If you play by the written rules, you never mention the "move". The move that gets triggered all depends on fictional positioning. Personally, I end up with a better story in my head, and something that feels much more immersive as an overall story. In addition, the story influences the mechanics and triggers, even when the same action may have had a different move trigger in the past. Something that feels like an attack against a larger foe may become a Defy Danger (not a Hack and Slash). This means that a given game may create immersion for some people and not for others, and this may well be out of the player's and the GM's control. I know that's a cop-out but that's what I really feel it comes down to here. I think that hits the nail on the head. Given what I've slowly learned about FATE, I can now play it in a manner that feels uber-immersive. But the first time I played there was that cognitive dissonance, and I can't help feeling like that is the reason Stork and others (myself included in the beginning) mention finding it breaking immersion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 9:50:31 GMT -8
While I appreciate the idea of not explicitly mentioning the moves with pbta games during my limited experience with Apocalypse World I found I had that same cognitive dissociation as I had to keep referring to them due to a lack of familiarity and to ensure that what I was trying to in the narrative actually matched up to what I was capable of from my character sheet.
Also the way the book was written didn't help with immersion but that's a separate gripe.
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Post by Probie Tim on Sept 15, 2016 11:07:38 GMT -8
the more well-worn the grooves are, the less you notice the needle on 'em. This is an excellent point. My old GURPS GM (and, from what I understand, both Mook and Stu as well) knew the GURPS grooves so well that he was able to minimize our bouncing out of immersion for game mechanic issues. We never had to stop and figure out all the modifiers and penalties and other "crunchy bits"; we'd just roll 3d6, let him know the result, and he'd go from there. The better a GM knows his system, the easier it will be to maintain immersion for the players. As a matter of fact, one could almost say that GM = ... a person who knows a system well enough to adjudicate it while maximizing player immersion (bet you thought I was gonna say something else, huh?)
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 15, 2016 17:45:20 GMT -8
We know your general geographical location.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 15, 2016 18:00:20 GMT -8
the more well-worn the grooves are, the less you notice the needle on 'em. This is an excellent point. My old GURPS GM (and, from what I understand, both Mook and Stu as well) knew the GURPS grooves so well that he was able to minimize our bouncing out of immersion for game mechanic issues. We never had to stop and figure out all the modifiers and penalties and other "crunchy bits"; we'd just roll 3d6, let him know the result, and he'd go from there. The better a GM knows his system, the easier it will be to maintain immersion for the players. As a matter of fact, one could almost say that GM = ... a person who knows a system well enough to adjudicate it while maximizing player immersion (bet you thought I was gonna say something else, huh?) It's like IT support - you just google it and follow a couple of instructions and everyone else thinks your a wizard.
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Gilded Phoenix
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Post by Gilded Phoenix on Oct 18, 2016 10:51:12 GMT -8
I have a few thoughts on immersion in games. Immersion as always my primary goal in any RPG, either as a GM or as a player. But before I lay out my thoughts on immersion, I'd like to tell a gaming story that I think will highlight my points.
A few years ago my friends and I decided to give Shadowrun a shot. As they made characters I told them the first-session premise: One of them was going to start the game in prison and the other two would be tasked by a Mr. Johnson to break him out. One of them would be set up as the cellmate to the person who would be broken free, and the other would be set up with a job as a lowly prison guard. How they break out was completely up to them.
Long story short: They decided to stage a prison riot. 'Cause, y'know, players. The prison was immediately locked down so they couldn't escape, but that wasn't their plan. During the riot, the B+E Specialist had stolen a commlink from one of the other guards and surreptitiously tossed it to one of the other characters who subsequently hid it in the tank of their cell toilet. The plan was for the hacker to hot-wire it so they could override the electronic security measures and sneak out.
Now we're going to zoom in here. The B+E Specialist fails his stealth roll to pass the commlink to the other character, but not by much. A guard gets suspicious and decides to break away from the riot (he was a coward anyway) to investigate. He sees the two cellmates in their cells, not participating in the craziness outside. The hacker quickly tries to hide the commlink. The silliness and joking that normally happens at the table melts away as everybody is focused on the next few events, which would basically decide if the last few hours of meticulous planning and set-up would blow up in their faces. The cyberpunk mix soundtrack I've set up is playing in the background. Dice hit the table. I roll the guard's perception check in secret. (The hacker fails.)
"What's going on in here?" The guard asks, flashing his oversized Maglite/shock baton in the two character's faces.
"N..Nothing..." The hacker says. (Roll bluff. He fails. Barely)
"Is that right?" The guard says. "Well, I guess you won't mind if I search the room?"
The guard begins to search the room. The Ex-cop sneaks behind the guard. (He succeeds.)
The guard searches the room. The hacker attempts to distract him with some fast-talk. (It's close, but the guard succeeds. The players don't know yet.)
"There wouldn't be anything in here, would there?" The guard says, lifting up the lid of the tank. The Ex-cop readies an action to pounce on the guard if he finds anything.
You could cut the tension in the air with a knife. D6s clatter behind my GM screen as I perform one final search check. The music, which had long ago become white noise, once again rings loudly in everybody's ears as it reaches a climax.
"This toilet is filthy. I expect it to be spit-clean on next inspection."
The table lets out its collective breath. The guard leaves.
Now, that story had plenty of die rolls in it. But it's also one of the most immersive moments I've ever had the pleasure of GMing. I think one of the biggest reasons it worked (Player trust is the other big ingredient, but I'll get to that later) is because I made the die rolls matter. I made the mechanics matter in a visceral way. The results on the dice were center stage in that moment. They would decide the outcome. I dressed the die results in a narrative way, but it's not like the players were unaware that dice weren't being rolled or that mechanics weren't being used.
But this only works if the mechanics and die rolls aren't used perfunctorily, which I think is the trap we all too often find ourselves in. The rules are there, and we feel obligated to use them even when it's not narratively necessary. It's not easy, but I think the GM needs to make sure that every die roll is narratively important.
In addition to that, I think it's unfair to expect that you can keep immersion running through a whole session, every session. Often times, you just have to do your best at crafting an engaging game and wait for the immersion to come to you. Then you latch on and try to ride it for as long as you can.
As to whether certain systems lend themselves to being more immersive, I would say that a good system is designed to be immersive in telling the kinds of stories it's geared to tell. DnD, when used to tell a pulpy action-hero fantasy story, works fine in my opinion. Especially 5e, which I feel cuts a lot of the fat and gets to the meat of a good DnD game. Real people don't get pricked with arrows and keep charging, but Conan the Barbarian sure as shit does. Pulpy heroes often go full-tilt into danger and don't stop unless they're killed (or forced to run away, but who are we kidding?) When a player looks down at his character sheet and realizes he's down to a handful of hitpoints, he changes the way he plays (at least, until he's all healed up).
And I don't think it's the GM's obfuscation of the rules, necessarily, that allows the game to be immersive. It's definitely an ingredient that helps, but I believe that the rules can be laid out completely for all to see and still preserve immersion. You can still have immersion as long as you make the mechanics matter and let the dice tell part of the story. It's the feeling of uncertainty of what will happen next that I think best facilitates immersion. All the better if the GM truly doesn't know, either.
Player trust is the other major ingredient. And not just in the GM and the other players, but also in the dice and the mechanics. The biggest immersion-breaking moments for me isn't using the rules, but rather a discussion about the rules. These discussions, whether from rules-lawyering or a new player who doesn't understand something, is ultimately rooted in distrust. They don't understand the system, or they understand the system but distrust the GM and feel like they need to be an advocate to get a fair result.
You can also break immersion if the GM doesn't trust the players to participate in the kind of story he wants to tell. GM wants to tell a horror game but the players are too concerned with cooking up a harebrained scheme to pants Jason, then you have GM-player distrust. The players don't want a horror feel, or they're overreacting to the GM "forcing" the feel unduly upon the players. Again, I feel this comes from the GM not trusting the players and the mechanics to produce these elements organically.
So, this post ended up much longer than I intended it, but there it is.
tl;dr : True immersion comes from a sense of unpredictability and trust. If the table truly doesn't know what's going to happen next, but you trust that the players, the GM, the dice, and the mechanics are going to lead you to a narratively rewarding outcome, then the immersion will come when the time and conditions are right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 3:37:23 GMT -8
Trust, such an ugly thing when it comes up. The truth about trust and game rules is that no one can be trusted. No one. Even the simpler systems can get turned around in a persons mind. Things are forgotten or misremembered. It will happen. I can trust that most players and GM's are not trying to cheat, but making honest mistakes. Those honest mistakes are still mistakes though. In a game where there is a lot on the line (the plot, character life, etc), how much are you willing to risk a mistakes that you are fairly certain is present in order to save someone's ego?
You see, checking a rule only breaks immersion for the person doing it. Its the fight that follows that breaks immersion. That fight is also a lack of trust from the GM to the player. Given a player with a good head for rules, why wouldn't you trust the correction and move on? Its because your ego is the size of a blimp and you are on a power trip. How dare someone interrupt 'your' game to tell you that you are wrong! How dare they!
The decision to ignore possible corrects only makes sense when experiance is more important than the true result. It means the die roll in question is not important. You only get one chance to play the game right. When the stakes are high you should want to be as correct as possible, because you can't take back the events that follow after the fact. If your game has such unimportant rolls as you can fudge with the rules and your game isn't effected by it, perhaps you need to examine the system and the rolls you are calling for. I know when someone is trying to take a pot shot at my skull in a game of GURPS, I'm going to take the time and make sure everything is right. Even a minor hit could take me out or stun me (which could mean my death in its own right). Two things I don't want to do is create a second character because someone has too big of an ego to slow down or retcon events already long past.
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