|
Post by ayslyn on Sept 21, 2016 22:27:58 GMT -8
Honestly it's not the content, or drawing attention to it that bothered me. It was the perceived tone and that the argument is built on a fallacy as well. Plus, as a writer, telling me to make a character a certain anything because there isn't enough representation pisses me off. I don't tell stories to advance a specific cause (though if I find the story compelling enough, a story might champion a cause).... I tell stories because I have to. I don't make a character gay, or black, or blonde because there aren't enough gay, or black, or blonde characters, but because the character IS gay, or black, or blonde.
Now, if some other writer WANTS to write for a cause, that's their choice. But, it's my observation that when you preach, instead of write, your characters and stories are much flatter.
And don't get me wrong. I am all for diversity in gaming (and in the characters you play). I've played both male and female; hetero, homo, and bisexual; and every culture that I can think of.
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Sept 21, 2016 23:23:38 GMT -8
Yeah, so I went back and reread the two entries. It's the tone... Monsterhearts is all "This is a game about discovering your sexuality and all the confusion that arises from that. We understand that might be an uncomfortable subject so here are some neat ways to do that."
Urban Shadows goes "Hey, isn't it interesting that all these trashy books are pretty bland, really, and all the protagonists are white...." (which, again.... Not actually true...)
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Sept 22, 2016 0:34:48 GMT -8
Reading the section in Urban Shadows again I can understand why the tone rubs you the wrong way. I didn't mind it, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. Thanks for answering.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Sept 22, 2016 12:14:15 GMT -8
Urban Shadows goes "Hey, isn't it interesting that all these trashy books are pretty bland, really, and all the protagonists are white...." (which, again.... Not actually true...) Does it really? Then it probably means I won't buy it. Not that I'm offended by the politics - you might accuse me of being a SJW, and I'd say "what's wrong with social justice?" - but their lack of awareness offend me. My favourite "urban fantasy" indeed probably the only series I read, features a Black police officer as its main protagonist, and half the dryads are black too. (This is Rivers of London BTW)
|
|
|
Post by uncommonman on Sept 22, 2016 12:51:10 GMT -8
With a risk of derailing this thread too...
I just hate when they switch race on characters in tv and movies, they made the Gunslinger in Steven Kings Dark tower series to a black man and made Karrin Murphy from Dresden files a latina.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Sept 22, 2016 13:12:28 GMT -8
With a risk of derailing this thread too... I just hate when they switch race on characters in tv and movies, they made the Gunslinger in Steven Kings Dark tower series to a black man and made Karrin Murphy from Dresden files a latina. I'm generally less worried about that, in most cases it makes little it no difference to the character, the actor was just the best one for the job in auditions. But if they changed Peter out of Rivers of London it would totally fuck with the story. His black (or in fact, his mixed race) nature is meant to reflect the changing nature of London itself.
|
|
|
Post by uncommonman on Sept 22, 2016 14:07:17 GMT -8
With a risk of derailing this thread too... I just hate when they switch race on characters in tv and movies, they made the Gunslinger in Steven Kings Dark tower series to a black man and made Karrin Murphy from Dresden files a latina. I'm generally less worried about that, in most cases it makes little it no difference to the character, the actor was just the best one for the job in auditions. But if they changed Peter out of Rivers of London it would totally fuck with the story. His black (or in fact, his mixed race) nature is meant to reflect the changing nature of London itself. I agree to a point, Karrin is not a big deal but to make the Gunslinger black ruins the whole dynamic of the story. But more than that I feel that there is better ways of getting more representative cast than to change race/sex of the characters, make a new story. One of my favorite films is Ran (http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0089881/) this is a movie with Japanese cast but it is a Shakespeare story. Why can't something similar be done for example the dark towers, call the movie/series the Gunslinger and say that it is inspired by the original. Another example is the comic Thor, Mjölner has been welded by aliens and women before but in stead the comic decided that all of a suden Thor was a title and we got cringe fests like this: Rant over and I will try not to deraile any more.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Sept 22, 2016 15:44:58 GMT -8
Here's the section being referred to, just so everyone knows what's being talking about.
It says "almost all of these stories are about white people". Not "all of these stories".
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Sept 22, 2016 16:28:12 GMT -8
Yes. To be fair they do say almost.
However, again as I understand it, that's still not accurate.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Sept 22, 2016 21:08:30 GMT -8
Here's the section being referred to, just so everyone knows what's being talking about. It says "almost all of these stories are about white people". Not "all of these stories". Well, I can't argue with any of that. One of the reasons why I dislike most "Urban" fantasy is the worlds feel nothing like the cities I've lived in. (Though the fault there might belong to the publishing whizz-kid who coined the term "urban fantasy" when what they really are are (young/) adult female orientated fairy tales. What I like about the PC Peter Grant novels, is they they know London. It feels right, and if you know it too, you can almost use the books as a Map, it's that accurate. I shouldn't be so judgemental, maybe I will try it out.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Sept 22, 2016 21:41:36 GMT -8
I haven't read past that, well not closely enough to remember anything, so I have no idea how the rest of the book handles this stuff or even if it comes up again.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 1:23:18 GMT -8
Wow, fuck that writer. I will not be buying this book because of that passage. Us "norms" also live all over the place (even in cities!). In fact, we are the fucking norm! Its insulting to insinuate that we have no part to play. Its nearly as bad as insinuating that the place of immigrants is picking our strawberries. I know its become cool to be different or edgy, but to claim they hold some special place above others is the exact opposite of what most of those groups want. Welcome our new cultural overlords everyone!
Fuck this guy. Fuck the horse he rode in on. And for the record, I liked that normative story where a wizard figures out his friends are like his family. I don't want his queer/feminist/edgy/artsy/piece of trash. He can take it and shove it up his ass!
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Sept 23, 2016 2:03:43 GMT -8
Boy howdy do I regret clicking on that "Display Post" button @stevensw. I debated responding to your post and am still not sure if I should, but Jesus fucking Christ. Chill the hell out, yeah?
There are two things being said in that passage. One, that many urban fantasy stories that claim to be edgy and different but are actually pretty standard fare. Second, that many urban fantasy stories are about white people.
Nowhere did it say that you can't like these "normal" stories or that you're a shit person if you do. It also didn't say you can't tell stories about white people; all it did was ask why the bulk of urban fantasy media seems to be about white people. If that winds you up into a fit of frothing rage I don't know what to say.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 2:48:58 GMT -8
Boy howdy do I regret clicking on that "Display Post" button @stevensw . I debated responding to your post and am still not sure if I should, but Jesus fucking Christ. Chill the hell out, yeah? There are two things being said in that passage. One, that many urban fantasy stories that claim to be edgy and different but are actually pretty standard fare. Second, that many urban fantasy stories are about white people. Nowhere did it say that you can't like these "normal" stories or that you're a shit person if you do. It also didn't say you can't tell stories about white people; all it did was ask why the bulk of urban fantasy media seems to be about white people. If that winds you up into a fit of frothing rage I don't know what to say. Maybe because they are written by white people or because that sells? People like urban fantasy because of its ease of immersion. This world is just like yours, but with a secret twist! I don't know anyone who reads urban fantasy because it is 'edgy'. Also, white people are immigrants. The people who lived in America pre-European settlers, were not white! Most people I know can tell you when their families moved here. That is why people call themselves Irish-American instead of just American. If you want the true story of some of the oldest cities in America (especially back east), then you can't forget who the immigrants were historically. If you want to go even deeper we can shove aside the stupidity that people moved to cities because they were chasing some cultural bullshit. Rich people move to the city for culture. For almost everyone else it was economic opportunity that drove them to the cities. What gets my goat about this author is they try to sell you a line of bullshit, which was never true, and then use that as a platform to shame people. I'm white. My character is probably going to be white as well. I plaid with a group with a black guy in it for a few years. Never once did he play anything but a black character. I wouldn't expect him to. I do not need this holier than thou crap shoved in my face. If you want to sell me urban fantasy, sell me on a world that is just like mine (where I am whatever race I normally am), but wait! There's more! Magic exists! Vampires are real. Whatever. Urban fantasies high point is its ability to be easily immersive. Its not so easy to be immersed if you ask me to become something I'm not. The author essentially is saying, "there is no room for you, the white man, in my game about cities". I hope he moves to the city and makes friends with those "weirdos" he thinks his stories are about. I wouldn't think of my friends or peers like that, but I'm not an offensive asshole.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Sept 23, 2016 2:54:36 GMT -8
If that's how you read that passage @stevensw, I don't feel there's any point on continuing to converse with you about the subject.
|
|