|
Post by ilina on Nov 14, 2016 13:51:00 GMT -8
Blood of Angels and Blood of Fiends actually have proven some rather interesting data. they have confirmed that players don't care what race they play as long as both the attributes it boosts are top priority to their build and the one it lowers is completely useless for their particular build. people aren't playing angel blooded battle oracles. they are playing oracles with +2 strength and +2 charisma. people aren't playing Tiefling Wizards, they are playing Wizards with +2 intelligence, +2 Dexterity and -2 charisma.
in other words, it doesn't matter which race provides the racial attribute bonuses the player desires, because their class supersedes their race in this case. it is also why Elves are a popular choice for rogues and Dwarves are a popular choice for druids. Rogues will be eliminated in a single round anyway, so a 12 constitution isn't much worse than a 14 or 16 for them, but the intelligence gives a rogue more skill points and the dexterity bonus increases many of their roguish goodies. the fact that many elves have roguish racial abilities is only icing on the cake and not the real prize. at the same time, a Dwarf gets a bonus to constitution and wisdom. plus, many of their inherent racial penalties are ignored in animal form, like their slow movement. their racial abilities are pretty much all trained or adapted features that technically apply in animal form due to being trained or adapted traits.
people will play blue skinned wizards with runes tattooed on their flesh if being blue skinned and having runes tattooed on your flesh gave you an intelligence bonus, oh wait, there is a blue skinned race that gets an intelligence bonus, and they have the memories to tattoo the history of their former lifetimes on their flesh. and guess what that ritual provides? another intelligence bonus.
|
|
lightningcat
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 29
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, D&D 4e
Currently Running: Transformers, Pathfinder
|
Post by lightningcat on Nov 14, 2016 14:41:22 GMT -8
While this is true for some people all of the time, and most people some of the time. One of my favorite characters in a 3.5 d&d game was an 18 Int human fighter. I've also had a teifling barbarian, and halfling paladin. While there is some benefit to playing the most mechanically advantaged race/class combo, there are plenty of roleplaying opportunities when playing against type. Now I'm not saying people should make useless characters, but they don't need to have "perfect" builds either. Characters should be both effective and fun, as well as having a place in the story.
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Nov 15, 2016 9:09:00 GMT -8
With all due respect, Ill... I strongly suspect your pool of subjects falls short of a rigorous standard to come to such a conclusion....
But regardless.... So what? There is nothing that keeps one from making a compelling character who just so happens to also be mechanically sound. Actually some of my most interesting, and fun to RP characters were the products of my more insane luck streaks during character creation.
|
|
|
Post by ilina on Nov 16, 2016 17:30:22 GMT -8
With all due respect, Ill... I strongly suspect your pool of subjects falls short of a rigorous standard to come to such a conclusion.... But regardless.... So what? There is nothing that keeps one from making a compelling character who just so happens to also be mechanically sound. Actually some of my most interesting, and fun to RP characters were the products of my more insane luck streaks during character creation. there is nothing that keeps you from making a mechanically sound character compelling. but there is something wrong when the fighter picks that race with +2 to strength and dexterity but -2 to charisma, literally dumps their charisma to 5 so they can have a 12 intelligence and 12 wisdom, and has an 18 strength and dexterity with a 14 constitution, and the whole reason they picked that race was not because it had compelling lore, but because it offered a bonus to 2 combat stats and a penalty to one of the easiest stats to dump. this is especially true when the character expects to solve all their problems with violence. i don't seem to as badly mind bards who dump strength and constitution in favor of intellect and charisma because i know murder isn't their default solution. but when characters are designing the perfect murderers. i tend to have issues there.
|
|
sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
|
Post by sbloyd on Nov 20, 2016 16:56:46 GMT -8
It sounds more like you should have frank and open conversations with your players during character creation regarding expectations, and possibly exert a sterner hand on what books are allowed to be used in your games.
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Nov 20, 2016 17:42:40 GMT -8
I don't see an issue as long as they RP their stats?
This is Pathfinder we are talking about here - if there's a game where builds are important this is it.
If I am a fighter, WHY would I take less than 18 strength if I have that choice? It just makes me less effective.
This is just how Pathfinder works.
People can role play better or worse or not at all, but the fact is that the system encourages people to play a certain way and so that's what people do.
Players respond to the incentives they are given.
If the system gives no roleplaying incentive then it's on you as the GM to do so, or expect to see very little role play.
This is why narrative games have gamified role play. Some people love it and some hate it but it comes down to incentives for how people behave and whether the system you are playing has them baked in or if you need to create them yourself.
|
|
|
Post by ericfromnj on Nov 20, 2016 20:29:43 GMT -8
My best 3.5 character was a dwarf wizard...
|
|
scubasteve
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 82
Preferred Game Systems: Pathfinder, Dungeon World, HEX
Currently Playing: Pathfinder
Favorite Species of Monkey: Yes
|
Post by scubasteve on Nov 26, 2016 19:27:21 GMT -8
I don't see an issue as long as they RP their stats? This is Pathfinder we are talking about here - if there's a game where builds are important this is it. If I am a fighter, WHY would I take less than 18 strength if I have that choice? It just makes me less effective. This is just how Pathfinder works. To be fair to both 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder, this is not nearly as true as it is in 4E. Having a 16 in your "main" stat is fine, even for spellcasters, and I rarely go above that to start with, regardless of class. It just really isn't actually necessary.
|
|
sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
|
Post by sbloyd on Nov 26, 2016 19:46:16 GMT -8
Is the inverse true? Did they cut down the penalties for particularly low stats, too?
|
|
scubasteve
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 82
Preferred Game Systems: Pathfinder, Dungeon World, HEX
Currently Playing: Pathfinder
Favorite Species of Monkey: Yes
|
Post by scubasteve on Nov 26, 2016 19:57:09 GMT -8
I do not believe so, but the math, especially at low levels, is not as punishing in 3.5/Pathfinder for having less than an 18-20 in a stat you want to use.
Also at higher levels, the math doesn't really work regardless, so again, it doesn't matter as much as 4E. It does matter, but it is perfectly legitimate to run a fighter with 14 str. Or a wizard with 14 int. It doesn't cripple the character combat wise, if you played your character smart in combat.
|
|
sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
|
Post by sbloyd on Nov 26, 2016 21:54:09 GMT -8
Well, there's "not crippling" and there's "I absolutely get an advantage for allocating my points this way". Unless they've changed how attribute points work (and that's possible), you don't ever get more, so why not stack the deck in your favor?
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Nov 26, 2016 22:30:14 GMT -8
Well, there's "not crippling" and there's "I absolutely get an advantage for allocating my points this way". Unless they've changed how attribute points work (and that's possible), you don't ever get more, so why not stack the deck in your favor? I actually am starting to believe that system is a really important part of influencing player behaviour. I know nothing will save a game from a dick GM, but you can't expect people NOT to take advantage of the feddback loops inherent to the game system....
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Nov 27, 2016 0:49:25 GMT -8
Well, there's "not crippling" and there's "I absolutely get an advantage for allocating my points this way". Unless they've changed how attribute points work (and that's possible), you don't ever get more, so why not stack the deck in your favor? I actually am starting to believe that system is a really important part of influencing player behaviour. I know nothing will save a game from a dick GM (or player for that matter), but you can't expect people NOT to take advantage of the feddback loops inherent to the game system....
|
|
scubasteve
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 82
Preferred Game Systems: Pathfinder, Dungeon World, HEX
Currently Playing: Pathfinder
Favorite Species of Monkey: Yes
|
Post by scubasteve on Nov 27, 2016 17:12:47 GMT -8
I actually am starting to believe that system is a really important part of influencing player behaviour. I know nothing will save a game from a dick GM (or player for that matter), but you can't expect people NOT to take advantage of the feddback loops inherent to the game system.... I completely agree, the only point I've been trying to make is that 3.5/Pathfinder don't actually reward the super hard min-maxing of your stats that a lot of people think. Yes, having an 18 is technically better than having a 16, but the cost you pay in a point build game means that it is usually not really worth it. At least, from my perspective, and I am personally someone who actually enjoys min-maxing.
|
|
|
Post by ilina on Feb 27, 2017 0:31:44 GMT -8
funny thing with Pathfinder. Minmaxing is generally effortless to afford if you use your race to cheapen the cost of the high scores you want while dumping the dump stat you want to dump. most classes have a dump stat that really doesn't penalize their role and instead worsens what they already suck at, and a race with the racial modifiers to exploit the most out of thier points.
|
|