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Mote 20
Dec 10, 2016 22:30:07 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 22:30:07 GMT -8
Werewolf 20 lets you advance Backgrounds with XP, as does Mage 20. So it's not just Chronicles that incorporates that idea. (Off the top of my head, Mage charges 3x current cost; I don't recall what Werewolf mandates). So there's precedent. (EDIT: Wraith 2d Edition presents it as an optional rule, with the first dot cost set at 4, and 3x per dot thereafter.) (EDIT again: Demon the Fallen has increasing Backgrounds in the main experience costs.) I'm thinking the absence of at least an optional rule for increasing Backgrounds via XP in VtM20 is an oversight rather than intentional. I'd say they had a change of heart/opinion. They explicitly state that you cannot buy them, which to me does not look like an oversight. Again, I don't disagree with running it that way, but I don't believe it was an oversight.
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Mote 20
Dec 11, 2016 5:31:01 GMT -8
Post by Stu Venable on Dec 11, 2016 5:31:01 GMT -8
O'Malley had a couple problems. The way I see it, he's a man of faith, who has taken a vow of celibacy. Now he's addicted to Adrienne. He doesn't know how to interpret this, and decides it love -- an uncontrollable, obsessive kind of love. Knowing that he can't express it, he subsumes it until he breaks.
The way I've been seeing it, if something is paid-for (either during CharGen or after-the-fact) I see it as kind of sacrosanct. Take Adrienne's sire: she took that thing than means they're on great terms. Since she paid for that, I'm assuming, pretty much regardless of what she does, she's going to have his support (short of an actual physical attack or something).
If she hadn't spent XP on him, I would feel free to have his opinions of her evolve throughout the game.
IIRC the books states that your character with all the CharGen spends just represents their state at game start, and NOTHING is safe once game play starts. But I'm going under the philosophy that if you paid for it, I won't mess with it.
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sbloyd
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Mote 20
Dec 11, 2016 6:39:44 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Dec 11, 2016 6:39:44 GMT -8
Werewolf 20 lets you advance Backgrounds with XP, as does Mage 20. So it's not just Chronicles that incorporates that idea. (Off the top of my head, Mage charges 3x current cost; I don't recall what Werewolf mandates). So there's precedent. (EDIT: Wraith 2d Edition presents it as an optional rule, with the first dot cost set at 4, and 3x per dot thereafter.) (EDIT again: Demon the Fallen has increasing Backgrounds in the main experience costs.) I'm thinking the absence of at least an optional rule for increasing Backgrounds via XP in VtM20 is an oversight rather than intentional. I'd say they had a change of heart/opinion. They explicitly state that you cannot buy them, which to me does not look like an oversight. Again, I don't disagree with running it that way, but I don't believe it was an oversight. Personally, I think it's due to mass importation of text from earlier editions of Vampire, given that material from both before and after the publishing of VtM20 uses the "you can purchase and advance Backgrounds" rule. It would be interesting to compare the specific wording with VtMR and VtM2 to see if it is a copy/paste situation...
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sbloyd
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Mote 20
Dec 11, 2016 6:44:20 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Dec 11, 2016 6:44:20 GMT -8
It's actually too bad, as there are some interesting RP opportunities with a man of the cloth inasmuch as Adriann and crew are descendants of Caine.
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Mote 20
Dec 11, 2016 7:36:56 GMT -8
Post by Probie Tim on Dec 11, 2016 7:36:56 GMT -8
Your houserule ( which I'm not actually against), is directly in opposition with the printed rules in the book. Then why in the holy blue hell are you making an issue out of it? Do you honestly believe that when I house rule such a thing I don't know that it's in opposition to the rules and you have some duty to tell me? That you're the VtM police or something? That's pretty much what a house rule is, a consistent ruling made by a GM that is in opposition to the rules. "I don't like this, so I'm going to change it." Anyway... You said that backgrounds aren't paid for in XP. I said that it's a common house rule I've seen in many games. You said that was wrong. I gave a quick example where it could be needed. Then you once again tell me I'm wrong but that you aren't actually against the house rule? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? I think I'm just probably done "debating" RPG stuff with you.
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Mote 20
Dec 11, 2016 19:32:23 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 19:32:23 GMT -8
O'Malley had a couple problems. The way I see it, he's a man of faith, who has taken a vow of celibacy. Now he's addicted to Adrienne. He doesn't know how to interpret this, and decides it love -- an uncontrollable, obsessive kind of love. Knowing that he can't express it, he subsumes it until he breaks. The way I've been seeing it, if something is paid-for (either during CharGen or after-the-fact) I see it as kind of sacrosanct. Take Adrienne's sire: she took that thing than means they're on great terms. Since she paid for that, I'm assuming, pretty much regardless of what she does, she's going to have his support (short of an actual physical attack or something). If she hadn't spent XP on him, I would feel free to have his opinions of her evolve throughout the game. IIRC the books states that your character with all the CharGen spends just represents their state at game start, and NOTHING is safe once game play starts. But I'm going under the philosophy that if you paid for it, I won't mess with it. Why not just adopt the sanctity of merits from NWoD? Instead of saying it is safe because you paid for it, you get those points back if it goes away. Thus things can evolve and play out in a natural fashion without anyone getting screwed out of their XP.
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Mote 20
Dec 11, 2016 20:03:25 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 20:03:25 GMT -8
Your houserule ( which I'm not actually against), is directly in opposition with the printed rules in the book. Then why in the holy blue hell are you making an issue out of it? Do you honestly believe that when I house rule such a thing I don't know that it's in opposition to the rules and you have some duty to tell me? That you're the VtM police or something? That's pretty much what a house rule is, a consistent ruling made by a GM that is in opposition to the rules. "I don't like this, so I'm going to change it." Anyway... You said that backgrounds aren't paid for in XP. I said that it's a common house rule I've seen in many games. You said that was wrong. I gave a quick example where it could be needed. Then you once again tell me I'm wrong but that you aren't actually against the house rule? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? I think I'm just probably done "debating" RPG stuff with you. Things you also said had to do with the GM or ST giving backgrounds out of the goodness of his heart, which is some straight up bullshit. It's like a move in Apocalypse World, if you did it in fiction then it happens (you get the dots). The reason you are house ruling seems to be because you don't understand how it works (or worse, don't trust your ST enough for it to work as written). Your 'debate' started with a bunch of bad info on the way the actual system works. House rule away if you want to, but don't claim it was because of some deficiency in the base system. The only reason I'd currently see to use your house rule is if I was playing in a PbP where the GM wasn't going to witness everything that took place (in order to hand out dots as needed). In that case it might be simpler to make people pay than implement a submission process for gaining backgrounds. Debate isn't always about disagreement. Just because I'm not against using XP to gain backgrounds doesn't mean I am for it for the same reasons. Reasons are important when it comes to game design because you need to know what problem you are fixing and if your solution fixed the problem. Your problem seems to be that the ST either isn't trusted to hand out backgrounds, doesn't want to bother, or doesn't want to seem like he is playing favorites. While the house rule solves all three, using it for the first reason seems like a major insult to the ST. All three also cause a major imbalance in the growth of characters as those who wish to gain backgrounds must sacrifice in other areas. Thus you'd have to pay twice to up something like resources, once for the ability which gives you the fictional positioning to raise it, and twice to actually gain the new dots. It also stifles growth and drive for the characters to accomplish their goals, as those goals will be capped by how much XP they are given to spend. It doesn't matter how much you pursue making new allies if you can never afford to pay for all of them. Part of the reason why Chronicles of Darkness works well with paying for merits (backgrounds get rolled into merits in that edition) is because you gain XP by chasing your goals. Thus the drive to advance and to have motivations are tied back together. Pursuing new allies as an aspiration will earn you beats (5 of which equal the 1 xp needed to buy a dot of merit) that you use to buy that Ally. While it is still more limited than VtM (good luck gaining a bunch of dots over a single session, not possible), it works. Many of the skills you would have once needed to work towards certain backgrounds (depending on how you go about it) are also rolled together into other skills. Thus you are taxed less by needing to have skills in order to gain the fictional positioning to buy merits (an example is finance and law both being rolled into academics). Chronicles also doesn't have the same assumption that Stu is using (being that backgrounds purchased are untouchable).
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sbloyd
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Mote 20
Dec 12, 2016 7:15:22 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Dec 12, 2016 7:15:22 GMT -8
As opposed for having to pay for them, was my interpretation.
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sbloyd
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Mote 20
Dec 12, 2016 7:25:39 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Dec 12, 2016 7:25:39 GMT -8
I see the paying for backgrounds thing post-gen as serving two functions.
One, during downtime, representing development of your character not represented by actual table time. There was a - what? 8 month? - gap for the Mote dwellers. I could see purchasing Backgrounds as just as relevant to developing your character as learning a new level of a Discipline. I could even see an argument for handing out extra XP specifically for the purpose of "gap development". Naturally there are limits, depending on what you wanna purchase (Skully's not going to go from destitute to owning a multinational in that time).
The other relates to the 18-08 discussion about backstory stuff. If there's a part of your character that you deem important enough to stake out (to spend XP on) as "GM Hands Off" then you have a way to represent that. One Vampire game I was in, my character invested a lot of points in a ghoul; I'd've been pretty pissed if the GM had that ghoul bug out the way O'Malley did (especially because, as you keep pointing out, @stevensw, that there's no "sanctity of merits" in oWoD, and those Backgrounds would be flushed down the shitter).
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Mote 20
Dec 12, 2016 7:41:09 GMT -8
Post by Probie Tim on Dec 12, 2016 7:41:09 GMT -8
Things you also said had to do with the GM or ST giving backgrounds out of the goodness of his heart, which is some straight up bullshit. Evidently you've never heard of a figure of speech? The reason you are house ruling seems to be because you don't understand how it works (or worse, don't trust your ST enough for it to work as written). You should tread carefully when you start making judgements about what people understand and what they don't. I house rule this not because I don't understand (Wanna talk straight up bullshit? That's straight up bullshit.) but because I like it better that way. House rule away if you want to, but don't claim it was because of some deficiency in the base system. Where are you getting this shit? I never, ever said that. At all, ever. I said that I - and many other VtM GMs - house rule XP for backgrounds because dots are the only way you can mechanically track them. Some GMs give them out because of the narrative (this is where I used the figure of speech "out of the goodness of their hearts"), some enforce an XP cost. I don't know why some GMs freely give out dots as the narrative directs and why some charge XP. Personally, I just don't like that if I want to get stronger, or better at obfuscate, or become a better sneak, I have to spend XP, but if I want to get more retainers, or increase my wealth, or my status, I just have to make sure it happens in-game. I don't like that inequality. I like it better when all character advancement is directed by the same mechanical construct. That's not a deficiency in the system, that's a personal preference for my GMing style, born out of years and years of gaming and tinkering with game systems. So stop making assumptions about me, my gaming style, and why I choose to run games the way I do.
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Mote 20
Dec 12, 2016 7:43:48 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 7:43:48 GMT -8
I see the paying for backgrounds thing post-gen as serving two functions. One, during downtime, representing development of your character not represented by actual table time. There was a - what? 8 month? - gap for the Mote dwellers. I could see purchasing Backgrounds as just as relevant to developing your character as learning a new level of a Discipline. I could even see an argument for handing out extra XP specifically for the purpose of "gap development". Naturally there are limits, depending on what you wanna purchase (Skully's not going to go from destitute to owning a multinational in that time). The other relates to the 18-08 discussion about backstory stuff. If there's a part of your character that you deem important enough to stake out (to spend XP on) as "GM Hands Off" then you have a way to represent that. One Vampire game I was in, my character invested a lot of points in a ghoul; I'd've been pretty pissed if the GM had that ghoul bug out the way O'Malley did (especially because, as you keep pointing out, @stevensw , that there's no "sanctity of merits" in oWoD, and those Backgrounds would be flushed down the shitter). In the VtM game I play in, the GM has us make rolls for downtime and we gain dots equal to our successes for gaining merits. The number of rolls depends on the length of downtime and the activities chosen (no fixed system, he just adjudicates it). As far as hands off stuff, I don't really think most backgrounds are possible to be hands off by nature. Even a 3 step bonded ghoul could get turned by the sabbat and made to drink of the vaulderie. Boom, your major hold on him is broken. Other than some oddities like sabbat rituals or blood potency, nearly every background can be lost in some manner. Backgrounds in general represent a character's temporal power base. They are all avenues of attack against you just as much as they are assets. Often they are the pieces in shadow wars staged by vampires against each other. It isn't allowed for you to just attack your rival, but you sure as hell can attempt a hostile takeover of his company. You could take his mortal confidants and associates as ghouls, thus making them your property. Opportunities abound. NWoD does have the True Friend merit, which is similar to what you are seeking (ST can't kill them without your approval and there is a big penalty for trying to turn them against you). I can definitely see a place for such a mechanic, but it should be special and not an intrinsic part of all bought backgrounds (kind of like you buy security separately for your domain). Probie Tim So then it never had anything to do with the goodness of anyone's heart or anything other than your dislike for the mechanics of the game? Because you did a pretty good job of convincing me you were against it because it was somehow unfair or ignored (otherwise one might assume you'd be cool with getting what your earned). It's fine if that is the case (not that my opinion really matters. It's not like it not being fine would make a difference). We're all bothered by what we are bothered by. Why not just lead with that though? "I don't like it because I want all of my advancement to be unified under a single system." There really isn't much to argue with there other than the whole double dipping thing I talked about before. Since I don't think you are devious to the point of making a physical monster and advocating for rules which would hurt people of a more social bent, I'm like to guess that never entered your train of thought on the matter.
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Mote 20
Feb 15, 2017 19:31:30 GMT -8
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Feb 15, 2017 19:31:30 GMT -8
Just noticing Probie Tim, that you spent a little too much blood on Potence. it only requires one Blood Point to turn all your dots of Potence into automatic successes.
P. 192 System: Each dot that the vampire has in Potence adds one die to all Strength-related dice rolls. Further, the player can spend ONE blood point and change his Potence dice into an equal number of automatic successes to all Strength-related rolls for the turn. In melee and brawling combat, successes from Potence (either rolled or automatic) are applied to the damage roll results.
emphasis mine
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sbloyd
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Mote 20
Feb 16, 2017 6:36:31 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Feb 16, 2017 6:36:31 GMT -8
Wow. I guess that's the consolation prize for Potence not being Celerity.
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Mote 20
Feb 16, 2017 10:19:48 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Feb 16, 2017 10:19:48 GMT -8
Wow. I guess that's the consolation prize for Potence not being Celerity. Everything should get prize for not being the pain in the ass that is celerity.
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