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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 15, 2017 23:38:10 GMT -8
yojimbohawkins Is the GM also not a player? It's not like NPC's are run by a computer. The only difference is the amount of attention NPC's get vs PC's (and some games allow players to get multiple characters). The very reason why people get pissed off when a GMPC or a Mary Sue NPC comes along is that they steal the limelight from the players. Luck is just one tool that helps draw that limelight to you. As for just playing as if you were fearless, I call that unwise. Those PC's end up dead, quickly. And I don't know about you, but I don't have enough gas in my tank to make 10 different characters while I die from making poor decisions. Luck won't allow you to punch above your weight class, but it will protect you from the lower outlier of rolls. Because luck is limited to a number of rolls per session, it is a great way to offer protection without abuse (blow it on trying to get a rediculous roll and you won't have it when you need it). Hmm. The GM is a player in the game, but I don't feel the need to use the Luck advantage to stick it to the players or as an excuse for it, nor do I feel the need to draw the limelight to me as GM. The PC's are the protagonists of the story; it feels quite narcissistic to put the focus on me as GM, when arguably the GM is as involved in the game as anyone at the table, more so in fact. Is that what you're suggesting? No-one likes to lose a character, but I think you need to go into L5R with the understanding that it's a real possibility in every session. Samurai are supposed to be ready to die at a moment's notice, so it feels like a disservice to the players and the game to play down that facet of the setting. Poor decisions have nothing to do with it. I've found that the setting makes players think about the consequences of their actions. Throwing their life away runs counter to their duty to their daimyo, but they mustn't lose face either. It's supposed to be a knife-edge for them to walk every day. If a player takes the Luck advantage, well, that's their right as the creator of their character, but to suggest that it's some sort of GM panacea or way for the GM to become the focus of the game just feels wrong to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2017 1:01:31 GMT -8
yojimbohawkins You did misunderstand me, unfortunately. I meant that if a player is what makes a character a protagonist, then every character is a protagonist. There is no definite seperation between PC's and NPC's in that reguard. What separates them is the importance given to them by spotlight. Protagonists are the doers in any story. It is their actions that move the narrative forward. Luck is one tool that encourages action (void points are another). The camera follows the action, thus someone with luck is more likely to do the thing that will get them the spotlight. Those people in the spotlight who do things are the protagonists.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 16, 2017 13:23:51 GMT -8
yojimbohawkins You did misunderstand me, unfortunately. I meant that if a player is what makes a character a protagonist, then every character is a protagonist. There is no definite seperation between PC's and NPC's in that reguard. What separates them is the importance given to them by spotlight. Protagonists are the doers in any story. It is their actions that move the narrative forward. Luck is one tool that encourages action (void points are another). The camera follows the action, thus someone with luck is more likely to do the thing that will get them the spotlight. Those people in the spotlight who do things are the protagonists. I'd say a protagonist is the main character, and for me that's the PC's. I wouldn't include NPC's in that at all. They may be important, but's that not the same thing for me. The PC's should be the ones in the spotlight; it's their story. If it was the NPC's story, it probably wouldn't be a fun game for the players. Sorry, but I just don't agree with you on the Luck thing. Perhaps it is a tool that encourages action, but I absolutely do not think that someone with luck is more likely to do something to get themselves into the spotlight. The spotlight should never really be off them; for me that's what being a protagonist is, plus I hope that the games I run aren't filled with players fighting for attention. Maybe that's how you play L5R, or any game that has some sort of luck advantage, but I don't think that's how the majority of players do it. I'd love to hear from anyone else on this though. Anyone?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2017 5:31:15 GMT -8
Umm, what? You can't smooth over a duels results. The heavens decide such things, there are no take backsies. Also, this asumes only duels to first blood. There is no 'later' when you duel to the death. Also, duelists often are champions. If the problem could be solved by a courtier and their skills, then you wouldn't be needed. Got to disagree. While the results of the duel are meant to be the will of the heavens it doesn't stop human nature. Winner of the duel was a pompous fool? Fine, the fates have decided he was right in that particular instance but good use of etiquette / courtier after can give the impression you've learned from the result by being a pious and upstanding member of court. Or you could subtly make the case that yes, you responded inappropriately but wasn't his provocation just a bit too crude for a court of this standing? You may have lost the duel but you can still come out ahead. Or to take an example from Sir Guido's listener game I challenged a drunk insulting our group to a duel in order to protect the reputation of our leader who was the Topaz Champion. As a junior, lower status member I could afford to respond to the provocation before it got to the point where he was forced to, preventing the potential for him to publicly lose face in the resulting duel. In doing so I also insulted the proprietor of the inn we were in but smoothed things over by returning the next day to make an apparently sincere apology, As for the luck issue I don't see it as an essential advantage as I think the setting shines just as much when players fail as when they succeed. Sure the system doesn't have fail forward / complications written into directly into the mechanics but a good GM will bring them into play and introduce the appropriate consequences for failure that make the narrative interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 14:01:05 GMT -8
Umm, what? You can't smooth over a duels results. The heavens decide such things, there are no take backsies. Also, this asumes only duels to first blood. There is no 'later' when you duel to the death. Also, duelists often are champions. If the problem could be solved by a courtier and their skills, then you wouldn't be needed. Got to disagree. While the results of the duel are meant to be the will of the heavens it doesn't stop human nature. Winner of the duel was a pompous fool? Fine, the fates have decided he was right in that particular instance but good use of etiquette / courtier after can give the impression you've learned from the result by being a pious and upstanding member of court. Or you could subtly make the case that yes, you responded inappropriately but wasn't his provocation just a bit too crude for a court of this standing? You may have lost the duel but you can still come out ahead. No, you absolutely cannot. It has been decided. You can't rehash it. If you even tried, the whole room would have to ignore you for being rude/crass. As for whether you learned your lesson or not? Who cares? If you were dueling over something of importance, your piety means shit next to the fact that you just let your clan/superiors down. Let's say I did humor the idea that you can somehow change it after the fact. That situation is no different that the duel itself. Here's hoping you don't botch that roll. At a certain point, you argument basically equals no consequences for your actions because you can always try to fix it later. Not only does that include the same point of failure, but it take all meaning out of the rolls. Finally, I think you don't understand eastern culture. The idea that it is only human to get swayed later is not one that holds true in rokugan. Take the Emperor's decrees. A new Emperor cannot remove the decrees of a previous emperor. Hantei's laws still hold, and no one can question them. New wisdom does not prevail. When the heavens speak, the decision is final. There will be no review of it. No one will care about how you were provoked. It is your fault for losing face. No etiquette roll after the fact will change the facts. You lost face. You lost the duel. You are an embarrassment.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 18, 2017 16:37:51 GMT -8
Umm, what? You can't smooth over a duels results. Uhm... yes you can. The duel is only the answer to one issue. You can use your courtier skills to play that down and play up other issues, or make the other party look petty or stupid for instigating the duel in the first place. Duels aren't the end of the matter, the heavens be damned. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Duels, more often than not, are tools of the courtier. People like to see this fancy version of duels where two samurai are fighting over one getting dirt on the other's kimono, but that's utter bullshit. That's two hot headed morons looking for a fight. Real duels are fought to solve issues. Look at the actual play. The Crane maneuvered the family into a duel so that Renjiro's brother could force him to step down. That wouldn't have happened without some skilled social maneuvering. If you don't want to be a tool, then if you're a duelist you need to be able to make your own duels happen.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 0:24:12 GMT -8
Umm, what? You can't smooth over a duels results. Uhm... yes you can. The duel is only the answer to one issue. You can use your courtier skills to play that down and play up other issues, or make the other party look petty or stupid for instigating the duel in the first place. Duels aren't the end of the matter, the heavens be damned. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Duels, more often than not, are tools of the courtier. People like to see this fancy version of duels where two samurai are fighting over one getting dirt on the other's kimono, but that's utter bullshit. That's two hot headed morons looking for a fight. Real duels are fought to solve issues. Look at the actual play. The Crane maneuvered the family into a duel so that Renjiro's brother could force him to step down. That wouldn't have happened without some skilled social maneuvering. If you don't want to be a tool, then if you're a duelist you need to be able to make your own duels happen. I feel like this whole post is obfuscation. Yes, duels are fought to answer a single issue. However, you can not smooth over the result. Other issues are seperate from the duel. Your use of courtier to try and lead conversation away from that issue does not change the outcome, at all. In fact, its probably too late for that tactic. You try to change conversation so you don't end up in a duel. Once you do and lose, there isn't much else to do. Yes, I suppose you could try to make the other guy look bad. That's probably really hard, without coming off like a sore loser. Your second paragraph takes my stance! You pulled a Trump. "Wrong." The crane maneuvered the family into a position where their duelist could do the work, because their own skill alone could not. You see, talk doesn't resolve things unless its from the heavens "aka the Emperor". If you want a final resolution to any issue, a duel provides it. There can be no debate that follows it. No one can simply change their mind. The issue has been resolved. While I agree in principle that if you want to fight for yourself and not others (and on the occasion of your choosing), you need the social skills the make that happen. But the very idea that anyone is doing anything for 'themselves' smacks of western ideals. You belong to the clan. It is much more important that any bushi have the social graces to keep others from maneuvering them into duels than it is that they can maneuver others. Why? Because the clan doesn't need every one of their samurai individually picking fights. Sure, there are probably some, but way less than the number of yojimbo who act as duelists. Think of bushi like members of marines. Your courtiers are like dignitaries. Do you really want the marines matching wit with foreign dignitaries? Or do you want them to say, "Yes M'am"? Anyone who is 'in the buisness' long enough is liable to pick up some tricks, but it is not the norm. Your average duelist is not a kenzishen. While it is terribly important that you can defend yourself in the battle of wits, the offensive can be left to the people whose job it is to represent the clan. Similarly, courtiers are liable to pick up some self defense tricks sooner or later, but most of them won't ever get into dueling themselves. In order to do so they would have to neglect sharpening their wit (the courtier skill and others), which is their duty.
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Post by fredrix on Jan 19, 2017 4:34:38 GMT -8
Hilarious discussion. First of all, when an American says "I think you don't understand eastern culture" I tend to ignore everything that follows. Come back and say then when you are actually Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. (Normally I ignore this particular American any-how, but I had to read his posts to follow the "discussion".) Then, when said correspondent gets all hot under the collar about whether others are correct in their understanding of an entirely made up fantasy world, which is self-confessedly contradictory even in its own canon I just have to laugh. Let alone the fact that when the world is in the hands of the players, it's their world now. It is allowed to be different.
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 19, 2017 8:28:04 GMT -8
Now you're just being a Douche.
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 19, 2017 11:36:20 GMT -8
Hilarious discussion. First of all, when an American says "I think you don't understand eastern culture" I tend to ignore everything that follows. Come back and say then when you are actually Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. (Normally I ignore this particular American any-how, but I had to read his posts to follow the "discussion".) Then, when said correspondent gets all hot under the collar about whether others are correct in their understanding of an entirely made up fantasy world, which is self-confessedly contradictory even in its own canon I just have to laugh. Let alone the fact that when the world is in the hands of the players, it's their world now. It is allowed to be different. Not to mention that in the Canon fiction there are multiple examples supporting my side. Like one where the Scorpion purposely lost a duel then used that to paint the Crane as bullies to bring good the court to their side.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jan 19, 2017 12:06:12 GMT -8
Not to mention that in the Canon fiction there are multiple examples supporting my side. Like one where the Scorpion purposely lost a duel then used that to paint the Crane as bullies to bring good the court to their side. That too, yes
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 23:28:05 GMT -8
Hilarious discussion. First of all, when an American says "I think you don't understand eastern culture" I tend to ignore everything that follows. Come back and say then when you are actually Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. (Normally I ignore this particular American any-how, but I had to read his posts to follow the "discussion".) Then, when said correspondent gets all hot under the collar about whether others are correct in their understanding of an entirely made up fantasy world, which is self-confessedly contradictory even in its own canon I just have to laugh. Let alone the fact that when the world is in the hands of the players, it's their world now. It is allowed to be different. Not to mention that in the Canon fiction there are multiple examples supporting my side. Like one where the Scorpion purposely lost a duel then used that to paint the Crane as bullies to bring good the court to their side. Two things. One: I'll grant that I needed to open my view somewhat. Nearly everyone hates the crane for this kind of thing. So I was wrong about that. Two: the actual duel itself was not changed as a result of the tarring of the crane. Whatever they fought over was still decided. This is also why the crane clan is all about civility and etiquette. Just because they have the best duelists doesn't mean that's their only or main way of dealing with issues. Nearly nothing is set in stone though, just because the clan as a whole is one way doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions. Even the crane have their villains. And to both of you. I have debated your ideas and recognized when I was off base when given sufficient evidence. I'm not the one being a douche. To Fredrix: I wasn't aware that being a part of a culture was requisite for understanding it. Clearly you must be from one of those cultures if you are challenging me, since your own beliefs don't allow you to say you understand them. Pretty sure you are not an Asian guy though. And yes, the setting is contradictory on purpose. So is the real world. That's why its worth discussing, otherwise it would be plain cut for everyone to see. We are doing what is done in the setting, right now, debating it.
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 20, 2017 6:29:18 GMT -8
Not to mention that in the Canon fiction there are multiple examples supporting my side. Like one where the Scorpion purposely lost a duel then used that to paint the Crane as bullies to bring good the court to their side. Two things. One: I'll grant that I needed to open my view somewhat. Nearly everyone hates the crane for this kind of thing. So I was wrong about that. Two: the actual duel itself was not changed as a result of the tarring of the crane. Whatever they fought over was still decided. This is also why the crane clan is all about civility and etiquette. Just because they have the best duelists doesn't mean that's their only or main way of dealing with issues. Nearly nothing is set in stone though, just because the clan as a whole is one way doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions. Even the crane have their villains. And to both of you. I have debated your ideas and recognized when I was off base when given sufficient evidence. I'm not the one being a douche. To Fredrix: I wasn't aware that being a part of a culture was requisite for understanding it. Clearly you must be from one of those cultures if you are challenging me, since your own beliefs don't allow you to say you understand them. Pretty sure you are not an Asian guy though. And yes, the setting is contradictory on purpose. So is the real world. That's why its worth discussing, otherwise it would be plain cut for everyone to see. We are doing what is done in the setting, right now, debating it. Calling me Trump? Yeah... you're the douche.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 20, 2017 9:27:22 GMT -8
This feels like an interpretation issue. This is a role-playing game and we each play in our own pocket L5R universe, although it looks like we all use the rich history and setting to its fullest. L5R seems to generate more than its’ fair share of debate on the society depicted in the game, and with good reason. The game depicts a rigid society bound in rules of iron, although some clans will skate around them if they can. I’ve encountered a few of these sort of disagreements though, most recently as a player, and it’s my challenge to take a step back and try to look at the issue more objectively. I have been playing L5R since 1st edition, and the card game too. I have all (and I mean all) the books in hardback and pdf where possible (including the disheartening WotC stuff), and I run L5R games every year, one-shots and campaigns, but because of that, I’m very aware that I have a very definite view of how the world of Rokugan works, based on all that experience. As alluded to above, I ran into a situation in a game I was playing in (a rare occurence!) in which another player got very antagonistic out of character when I challenged his character in game. I was playing a Susumu courtier (I was told the game theme was Bushido vs Shourido and I went Spider because the rest of the party were Unicorn, Phoenix and Dragon). The Phoenix player is running a Shiba, Isawa-trained shugenja who was born heimen and was adopted by the Phoenix when his ability to speak to the kami was discovered. He plays the character as a Hero of the People (and has the advantage), and spends time with both the heimen and eta in his spare time, healing their ills and helping them out, he aspires to be an Inquisitor, and has a mentor who is one (the GM approved this). The other characters are a Phoenix Void adept (with a similar background), a Tamori shugenja and a Moto bushi. I joined the game after a former player moved away, and I am friends with the GM, so I made my courtier to fill that gap. We were investigating the disappearance of two Phoenix samurai, and discover that the heimen in one of the local villages were using maho under the tutelage of a retired shugenja from a nearby monastery. We discovered what looked like the site of a battle, and the Shiba decided to speak to the kami to find out what happened. He discovered that one of the villagers had used maho, and decided that he needed to do and execute her immediately. I decided to insert drama and my Susumu challenged the Shiba on how he had come to this information. He informed me that the kami had told him, and his path was clear. I challenged him again, stating that the law was clear about the testimony of the kami, and we needed to question the villager to see if there were others involved, and we needed to speak to the local samurai (an Otomo) out of courtesy before we drag one of his heimen in for questioning. To be fair, I was being a Spider for the badness of it, but the Shiba player’s reaction was very surprising. He immediately dropped out of character, looking annoyed and said that Imperial law didn’t apply in this case and it was his duty as a Phoenix to destroy maho wherever he found it. He went on about how this was his interpretation of the game, and I had really no right to get in his way like that. I was surprised (and annoyed at his reaction and at what I felt was a completely wrong way to look at L5R), but began to explain how Imperial law is literally a mandate from heaven and samurai don’t get to ignore it whenever we choose. He began to get louder at this point, repeating his stance (the GM stayed silent throughout all of this). The Moto player then jumped in, cutting me off and siding with the Shiba player by saying that his character believes whatever the Shiba player says, and he was going with him to execute the villager. It was good job he did, to be fair, because I was just about to tell the Shiba player that he was entirely wrong as a player, which would not have helped at all. The other players sided with Shiba, so I told them Susumu continuing to the nearby monastery (which was our original destination). The Dragon player immediately changed his mind and stated he would accompany me to the monastery. While the Shiba, Moto and Void adept went off to the village, I took a step back and thought about what had just happened. The Shiba player had very clear views about L5R and the way it should be played, and it looked like the GM agreed with him. I saw that when the Moto and the Shiba used stealth to sneak into the villager’s hut, and took station above her bed and that of her mother, and attacked them in their sleep, then went to the local samurai still covered in the villagers blood (the Moto made a point of saying that) and informing the Otomo that they’d taken care of the maho situation in their village. The Otomo thanked them for it and they gained honour for their actions. I didn’t agree with the decision the GM had made, or with the actions of the Shiba and the Moto, but this wasn’t_my_game. I was playing in a game being run by someone else, and as such, I couldn’t expect my particular standard to be applied to it. It didn’t matter whether I thought it was right or wrong, it was merely different. I let it go (but Susumu is making it a point to belittle the Shiba and Moto by writing an unflattering poem about their ‘heroic’ efforts), and adjusted my expectations accordingly. Was I right or wrong? It doesn’t really matter. Taking a step back from my interpretation of L5R (which is of course correct! ) has made the game a bit more fun. There isn’t really room for a courtier in it because of the way they play it, but that’s ok. I’m spending my time getting them in trouble (which is always fun) and the rest of the gang seem to enjoy getting into trouble anyway.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 20, 2017 9:27:47 GMT -8
And playing the Trump card is just not cricket.
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