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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 21:32:23 GMT -8
It seems that most of my group loves to play evil PC. I GM the most in our group and I don't like running evil games or role-playing evil situations.
I do not like to stop a player and say they cannot do something so often when they get into a situation that I am not liking I montage past it and shake my head. Like when they are wanting to talk out a grotesque torture fantasy and want to hear how the NPC begs for his life and what he says I wave my hand and say, "You walk out of the forest covered in blood and he told you yes, to everything you asked."
I ran a one shot game set in the Song of Fire and Ice series and I was really looking forward to having the PCs have moral quandaries and trying to right the many wrong of the settings.
The wise old knight (Who was supposes to be the conscience of the group) proceeds to execute yielding prisoner and abuse the small folk.
The young pious seven worshiping Maester who was supposed to be very religious turns to evil instantly and says how he is modeling himself after Quburn and evil master, focus on the death aspect of the seven, and led the skinning of the yielded prisoner within 20 minutes of the session. I was hoping to bring some justice to this setting, but they fell right in with the worst things that the evil people do there, again.
I guess some people like running evil games and acting out gratuitousness torture and cruelty through role playing but it is not for me.
I know I could say fuck them and get new people, but I would like to hear first some tips on setting the game up so that they will make heroic good choices.
Does anyone have any good ideas?
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Apr 24, 2012 22:56:45 GMT -8
I know I could say fuck them and get new people, but I would like to hear first some tips on setting the game up so that they will make heroic good choices. Does anyone have any good ideas? Go with your instincts. Something tells me they are not playing evil but they are playing you. They like to see you squirm like the young girl surrounded by towel wearing older boys in the girls’ locker room. Call the teacher and have them removed. It's okay to do it. If they cannot communicate with you like an adult but only act out their impotent rage at the world (you create or the world they actually inhabit) then you do not need that negativity in your life. If these are your friends, rather than a bunch of losers from the FLGS, then consider getting new friends. Sorry I cannot tell you what you want to hear. I am sure you want to play and you need people to play with. If you are a douchey DM, then their reactions in game to you are not helping you to improve and develop. They are a hindrance to you ever finding the game table you will enjoy. So in this case I recommend a step back to move forward. Shoot for the kind of table that the Happy Jacks podcast represents, you'll find support here; and leave the world of darkness behind with the evil players is my advice.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 4:19:33 GMT -8
They like to see you squirm like the young girl surrounded by towel wearing older boys in the girls’ locker room. Wow... oddly specific metaphor there. ;D But I agree with the advice. For whatever reason, they're clearly into something *very* different than you in their role-playing. If you can, I think you need to find another group. --Pukka Tukka
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 25, 2012 6:19:27 GMT -8
I agree with the advice already given, but I also have an alternative.
In a word ... consequences ...
Torturing people is in most cultures considered bad and is almost universally illegal. Consider, they torture the guy for information and having gotten it by fell means go on their way completely forgetting about the guy they tortured. Only thing is, he went to the authorities and swore out an arrest warrant and oh I don't know say a hundred or so armed soldiers and wizards or whatever show up to cuff and stuff the pc's and they get to live out their lives in jail ... Time to roll up new characters boys ...
The wise old knight who tortured someone and was abusive could be suddenly called before a court of chivalry and stripped of his knighthood, his lands taken, be disavowed by his family and made a total pariah among the populous.
I can't promise that any of this is going to work, but I can promise it's going to be unpleasant for all involved. Failing that, I echo what others have said. Time for a different group of players.
As always just my 2 krupplenicks on the subject, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 9:22:41 GMT -8
I agree with the advice already given, but I also have an alternative. In a word ... consequences ... Torturing people is in most cultures considered bad and is almost universally illegal. Consider, they torture the guy for information and having gotten it by fell means go on their way completely forgetting about the guy they tortured. Only thing is, he went to the authorities and swore out an arrest warrant and oh I don't know say a hundred or so armed soldiers and wizards or whatever show up to cuff and stuff the PCs and they get to live out their lives in jail ... Time to roll up new characters boys ... JiB I would take JiB's idea and raise it. The players do not get to roll new characters for one session. Instead, they have to play their original characters in jail. The trick is to make jail the monotonous hellhole that it is. No drama, no breaking out. If they start a fight, send the player into the ubliette (solitary confinement). Everyday is sleep, wake up, eat, stare at the walls. The characters are each in their own cell and cannot talk to each other. Really drive home the painful boredom their characters will be facing the rest of their lives. At the end of the session, allow the players to make new characters...but tell them the same fate will hit the new characters if they try to reinact torture-porn they watched on Saw 5. Hopefully, this method will help them be better people.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Apr 25, 2012 12:42:51 GMT -8
Caveat: I've never tried this solution, because I would really not play with a group like yours. Just thinking out loud in case this hits off an inspiration.
I honestly don't think you're going to get them to play "heroic good" characters. They're having too much fun being torturing badasses. They'll have to get this out of their systems somehow and make the decision to play good guy themselves.
Still...perhaps you could channel or or redirect their impulses in some way? Maybe do something cyberpunky where they all have chips implanted in their brains that will pacify them if they attempt physical violence, but they can still blackmail or steal or whatever?
Do you have to be the GM? If one of the others is GM, do you think they'll still do the same things?
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Apr 25, 2012 12:54:31 GMT -8
I agree with the advice already given, but I also have an alternative. In a word ... consequences ... JiB I would take JiB's idea and raise it. The players do not get to roll new characters for one session. Instead, they have to play their original characters in jail. ....try to reinact torture-porn they watched on Saw 5. Hopefully, this method will help them be better people. Okay, JiB is referring to Gygax's Angry Villager rule from I believe page 24 of the White Box booklet 3. Essentially, enough angry villagers can take down a hero. Fade of black. Good night Batman. I would not give them the dignity of calling out a hero to face them since they're not real villains. darkloordsparky has a twist of personal revenge, along the lines of Gygax's other rule of "blue bolts from heaven" from AD&D. Yes, make it personal since you'll probably never see these players again. And good ridence. Their RPGA cards need to be revoked. However, don;t stop there by any means. I especially like the idea that just hit me about slipping each player a tab of acid and then, as the trip hits them, verbally "reinact torture-porn they watched on Saw 5" And film it. Post it on Youtube. Spread the link around on RPG forums. For the good of the hobby and all of us DMs who enjoy it, of course. ;D
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Post by Stu Venable on Apr 25, 2012 13:00:07 GMT -8
How old are these guys? I'm guessing they're young.
I remember coming up with some horrendous shit when I was a teenager, but was starting to look for a different kind of game when I approached (and reached) by twenties.
Assuming you don't consider finding another (more mature) group an option, I'm afraid you're going to have to put up with it until they get it out of their system.
You could ennui them into submission by giving them so many opportunities to do horrible torturous shit that it becomes commonplace and loses its novelty.
But it's likely you're going to give up and find another group before they get bored...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 14:35:39 GMT -8
You can't force them to make heroic choices if they don't want to. Even if the only people they run into are complete evil, if they kill them in the way you so far describe they themselves continue to be dark forces.
I would definitely look for a different group, but if you would prefer to continue playing with these guys then I'd have a long talk with them first. If that doesn't cause a change then follow the advice everyone else has given.
Adding consequences for their actions.. Make what the tortured people told them nothing but lies. Have them constantly go down the wrong paths where there is plenty of danger but little treasure. Cause the truly good to start hunting them down or have something even more evil then them go after them.
When killing them don't do it in some epic and heroic way, make their deaths a symbol of the waste they have caused. These guys want to tempt fate then let them know the risks they are taking. Karma is a bitch, and as the DM you control her.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 14:44:53 GMT -8
I am not so much as bored with the group as frustrated. I cannot put a moral decision that would build character in front of them.
Here are some other evil highlights:
Attacking a group of peaceful druids who showed them hospitality and are guarding an evil artifact the group was seeking.
Selling a baby to a witch known for sacrificing humans with flippant comments, "I don't know that baby", "I could use the space in my backpack back."
Killing and torturing surrendering prisoners.
Needing a car, opening fire at a grandmother to try to get her to flee from hers (who in turn returned fire because she was supposed to be a bad ass gun toting granny who would ally with them).
The group I play with are all my buddies and the only people that I game with. We are all mid 20s and up in age, but not so much maturity it seems.
As far as punishing them in game by killing them or making them bored I do not see this being very fun to run for me.
It is very difficult to get my friends to show up consistently to make a campaign happen so I have sold them on the idea of running convention style one shots and just picking up whoever we can at the time.
Out of the 9 people who game in my group (non consistently) there are 3 true evil streakers, 3 borderline evil dippers and the rest are really just enablers, but the evil ones are the ones that show up far more consistently then the others.
I really do not see them as doing this just to annoy me, but they enjoy it until I cut it short and move on (he swallows his cyanide pill, looks like lots of people have those now a days).
A thought I was thinking about is running a setting that does not empower them. Most RPG games are empowerment fantasies where your character can do things that you cannot but perhaps they need an unempowerment fantasy where they are not the top dogs of the setting and have to keep their head low in fear of losing it rather easily to the NPCs or enemies.
I hear the Chuthulu setting is like that where the players are completely not empowered and I was wondering if you could think of other fun settings where this set up would work. I like the brain chip idea which kind of reminds me of the movie Demolition Man, which would be a great to model a one shot game.
The one shot run club frees me up to switch up the setting and characters so I would love to hear your ideas.
And thanks guys.
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Post by ironnikki on Apr 25, 2012 20:13:06 GMT -8
I'll have to add my voice to the masses suggesting a new group. I think that's ultimately the best outcome, but I can also understand not wanting to ditch your friends. To me, it sounds like they're bored by the aspects of the game that you find most interesting- that is, not being total dickwads. The fact that you can't rely on them to show up really suggests to me that they're more interested in just going for shock factor and cool stories to tell after the fact than deep roleplaying. I don't know of much that can fix that, however, I think that your idea of an unempowerment fantasy is a good one. You don't necessarily need a whole new system to do that, if you guys are already used to one, but there are definitely some systems that handle PC punishment well. Call of Cthulhu comes to mind, as does World of Darkness, especially if you disallow supernatural templates. However, chances are good that they will continue to die and not learn from their constant punishment, and that's not really fun for anyone.
Do you think that your players might be bored? Do they come up with poor excuses to avoid the game? Are they stacking dice at the table and having side conversations? I've had some guys in my games that would start doing stupid stuff in the game if they weren't feeling that they were getting enough attention. If you're playing with 9 players, chances are good that they get bored at some point.
Honestly, I would talk to the three guys you described as enablers, and get a side game running with just you all. See if you can get someone else to take over running the one-shots with your main group, and jump in as a player. That way, you can still run a game that isn't flattened by madmen, and you don't have to give up gaming with your group of friends. Best of luck!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 20:45:43 GMT -8
We do not play with 9 players ever, I have 9 people who play in my group of friends though, but we are lucky to get together 5 people (4 players and a GM). And like I said the evil jack wagons are the ones who show up the most consistantly.
I don't think boredom is the problem because we have such a good time our faces hurt from laughing and are voices are hoarse from shouting by the end of a session (much to my sleeping girlfriends dismay). Might have to do with the 2.5 gallons of cheap wine we drank for the Game of Thrones theme, but we have a riot most of the time.
I'm going to take a step back and let them run a few games (it is always difficult to talk any of them into GMing but I think I have a few biters who would run a one shot). Then as a player I'll be the moral conscience of the group and not let them get away with that crap, or have my character go out in a blaze of glory trying. Hell, that's what one shots are for right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 21:05:07 GMT -8
The fact that these games are all one-shots and irratic creates a new dynamic to adjust for. My original idea of jailtime assumed a regular weekly group in a long-term game.
I agree the best way to deal with this group in a one-shot campaign is through a change in scenary. Perhaps you could have them be the prey instead of the predators:
Examples: They wake up trapped in a killing maze (e.g. The Cube). They wake up having been poisoned. A man promises to help them if they do what he says. If not...X( They are being hunted by the FBI for past crimes. They need to get to the border and safety. Anytime they start torturing people, a group of police arrive and the chase begins again. They are recently released from jail for previous crimes and equipped with new 'Evil-Guaard' collars that make certain actions impossible (Mentioned previously. Think Spike in Buffy).
One shots allow the GM to pull out all sorts of slap on unruly players because it won't imbalance future games. In fact, this is exactly why the players can get away with so much of the stuff they do. Speed up police response time. Bring in the ex-marine Neighborhood Watch. Have the vehicle they just stole die out when they try to outrun the cops (or run over an old lady).
Remember you get to have fun too. In fact, I bet this group would appreciate a highly competent and organized adversary to battle.
Good luck.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Apr 25, 2012 22:53:55 GMT -8
I still say dump them, but I am not as convinced as I was above. My personal experience is creating a group (looking for foreigners who speak English in a foreign country to be players) resulted in it being taken over by such WoWers when I stepped back and finally, now as a player in the group, being dumped by them. Oh, the irony. I no longer play in my group. (My last character was the assassin, split from the party by trap door and killed in the first game by two dragons by DM Fiat and then I was uninvited.) wallow, wallow. Banish by L.O.L. Back two years to my drawing board McFly... don't be me, proflampage. But I notice a contradiction here I have trouble to grok. I don't think boredom is the problem because we have such a good time our faces hurt from laughing ... we have a riot most of the time. I must admit I never had that with a group that made my gaming life difficult. This strikes me as extremely fun actually. It turns my school girl analogy above on its head if you're all having fun with it. It's not rape if you're giving consent. Do you laugh when your players act like psychopaths? I mean do you laugh at all - counting nervous laughter? Do you communicate any encouraging signals that they pick up on? The question I have now: Are YOU the enabler? If you want out, take the door. You may find that balance of the people who do not show up at your games will show up when they know when they know when they know the psychopaths are "unfriended" at the table. And they might have friends... and so on, and so on, and so on... Again, that's my perspective for what it's worth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 4:16:30 GMT -8
Okay, I apologize if I missed this somewhere, but I went back and read the posts again, and didn't see it.
Have you tried talking to them? I mean, it's obvious that you try and move away from the nastier evil stuff when you play. But have you actually said to your friends,
"Guys... I'm kinda tired of all the games where you kill, torture, maim, and disregard all human life. Could we try a game or two where we're actual good, moral characters? I'd really prefer it, and I've run you guys through so much of the other shit... how about just a game or two doing it my way? To see what it's like?"
Your particular speech may vary... but you get the idea. Make it clear to them that this really bothers you, and ask them to at least try a different approach for once.
There your friends... they should be willing to at least *try* it. I mean, it's not like asking to play characters with a conscience is a major difficulty, right?
--Pukka Tukka
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