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Post by Wakefield on Mar 11, 2017 16:12:10 GMT -8
Thanks to the Mote of Sin actual play, I have been hankering to play some V:TM, and in particular to resolve some unfinished business with a character I played in a Sabbat LARP back in Florida. Unfortunately, I joined at a time when the LARP was already very large and had tremendous existing narrative momentum, so I didn't get much opportunity to develop my Southern gentleman Tzimisce (and on reflection, I don't think he was truly Sabbat at heart). I am interested in playing this character again in a non-Sabbat game, maybe as a defector or part of a coterie of defectors, but everything I am reading suggests Tzimisce only rarely defect, if ever. Could anyone shed some more light on this issue?
I'm wondering if the only way I'll get closure with this character is to run or pitch a Dirty Dozen/Suicide Squad game where ex-Sabbat are sent on a suicide mission to prove their loyalty to the Camarilla. (Incidentally, that game would be pretty awesome.)
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Mar 12, 2017 11:56:50 GMT -8
Thanks to the Mote of Sin actual play, I have been hankering to play some V:TM, and in particular to resolve some unfinished business with a character I played in a Sabbat LARP back in Florida. Unfortunately, I joined at a time when the LARP was already very large and had tremendous existing narrative momentum, so I didn't get much opportunity to develop my Southern gentleman Tzimisce (and on reflection, I don't think he was truly Sabbat at heart). I am interested in playing this character again in a non-Sabbat game, maybe as a defector or part of a coterie of defectors, but everything I am reading suggests Tzimisce only rarely defect, if ever. Could anyone shed some more light on this issue? I'm wondering if the only way I'll get closure with this character is to run or pitch a Dirty Dozen/Suicide Squad game where ex-Sabbat are sent on a suicide mission to prove their loyalty to the Camarilla. (Incidentally, that game would be pretty awesome.) From the wiki which is pulled from the books. There are no Tzimisce antitribu. The vast majority of the Tzimisce belong squarely to the Sabbat; the rest are apolitical. There aren't even a bare handful of Tzimisce in the Camarilla, and those few are only there for personal reasons, and tend to leave once their objectives are completed. The presence of the Tremere virtually guarantees that the Tzimisce have no interest in remaining. Although a scant few individual members may join temporarily, it cannot be said that there is enough of an ideological difference, or enough members to declare an antitribu bloodline. My own take: Clan Tzimisce is rarer in the Final Nights. The don't embrace often and when they do, they tend to pick people that align with the less empathetic side of humanity. From the clan books information, they embrace paychopaths, sadists, and people that engage in self-mutilation. They aren't healthy mentally and those that aren't on the path of Metamorphosis, are incredibly low on the humanity scale to begin with. Tzimisce are monsters, which is why they fit so well into the Sabbat and not into the Camarilla. Other problems include Viscisitude, which aside from making them walking Masquerade violations, is a horrifying discipline that is infectious to the mind. There are few uses of the discipline that won't net you a humanity violation for how inhuman it is. The use of the discipline is painful, akin to torture. Even benevolent uses come with anguish for the recipient. That's why Tzimisce, more than any other clan, follow a Path. The Path of Metamorphosis helps keep them grounded. I almost said sane, but Metamorphosis is far from sane. It divorces oneself from humanity, teaches that the beast should be welcomed, and pretty much that others are there only for your pursuit in horrifying hedonistic desires. There are independent Tzimisce, which are the Old Clan but they are not sympathetic to the Camarilla and belong nominally to the True Blck Hand. Old Clan stays in Eastern Europe and do not possess vicissitude. So it all comes down to the fact that this small clan is both monsters outwardly and inwardly. They do not fit into the Camarilla nor would the Camarilla trust them. The Lore of the Clans book elaborates on that. While the Sabbat was formed with vast amounts of Antitribu, the Camarilla has had few and they are not openly welcomed. Most antritibu within the Camarilla hide their clan status because being discovered usually means final death. Hope that answers your question.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Mar 12, 2017 12:27:35 GMT -8
I misspoke when I said hedonism, though I still believe Tzimisce have their own type of hedonism it's not the traditional kind that is a sin in the Path of Metamorphosis.
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Post by Wakefield on Mar 12, 2017 17:27:18 GMT -8
Thanks, sovereigncitizenkane, for your take on things! It lent some crucial context to why Tzimisce and Vicissitude in particular are so unsuitable for the Cam. And it's beginning to sound as if I picked the wrong Clan for this character. His backstory was that he was Embraced in Civil War era Louisiana by a Tzimisce casting himself as a preacher/cult leader, who seduced the PC's mortal mother in order to get into her will and to funnel the family fortune into Sabbat resources. It seems a bit silly in hindsight. The follies of youth. I generally like this idea of Sabbat defecting to the Camarilla as part of a backstory, though. Maybe it could work if I retconned him into a Lasombra. Thanks again!
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Post by Probie Tim on Mar 13, 2017 10:36:21 GMT -8
As a player, I have a harder time trusting Sabbat defectors than I do Setites or even Baali. Just, you know, for whatever that's worth.
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Post by Wakefield on Mar 14, 2017 1:13:22 GMT -8
As a player, I have a harder time trusting Sabbat defectors than I do Setites or even Baali. Just, you know, for whatever that's worth. Oof. Now there's a point of comparison. I was looking forward to the uphill battle to secure Cammie trust as a source of character pathos, but if he's not even going to get his foot in the door... So much for a Camarilla Tzimisce plastic surgeon specializing in removing tails resulting from failed Frenzy checks.
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Post by Probie Tim on Mar 14, 2017 5:34:11 GMT -8
So much for a Camarilla Tzimisce plastic surgeon specializing in removing tails resulting from failed Frenzy checks. Don't let some random internet post dissuade you from playing the character you want to play.
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Post by Wakefield on Mar 14, 2017 6:48:05 GMT -8
So much for a Camarilla Tzimisce plastic surgeon specializing in removing tails resulting from failed Frenzy checks. Don't let some random internet post dissuade you from playing the character you want to play. Sorry, I should have put a wink emoji after that last comment in my post. On the contrary - I appreciate your comments, and I am psyched about the prospect of playing one of these characters! It just sounds as if they would be rarer in the WoD in general and would face more opposition in attempting to integrate with another Coterie, which could make some STs wary of approving the concept for play in their games. But provided I find an accommodating ST, it should be a good time.
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Post by Probie Tim on Mar 14, 2017 7:24:03 GMT -8
As an ST, if the player can come up with an awesome story as to why and how the character bailed on the Sabbat, I tend to let them. But I do tell them that it is an uphill battle in my games; the Prince, for instance, who would normally rubber stamp hospitality for pretty much any of the core Camarilla clans, might grant probationary hospitality for an antitribu clan at best, or may setup some sort of accounting-style agreement where some primogen or court officer keeps constant tabs on the antitribu for a very long time.
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Post by Wakefield on Mar 14, 2017 7:39:07 GMT -8
That makes perfect sense, and I think it would be great for heightening suspicion and paranoia inside and outside the party, as long the ST and other players didn't mind both that dynamic and the need for the ST to occasional give this character extra supervisory attention. I don't suppose you would be running a game anytime soon, Probie Tim ?
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clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
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Post by clanhanna on Mar 14, 2017 10:32:10 GMT -8
If what you want is to be a Vicissitude artist, you don't HAVE to be Tzimisce.
There is an option, brought up in "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" that Vicissitude is communicable, a disease. One can develop the discipline without training, simply from having either fed from a vampire who has it (though not from the Vaulderie), or — in extreme cases — even if it has only been used against you. After spending the usual 10 XP for the first dot, additional improvement costs the usual out-of-clan price of 7XP x current, but does not require a teacher.
Just a thought. I had a Toreador antitribu in one game I rand who had 4 dots in V-tude.
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Post by Wakefield on Mar 14, 2017 14:16:47 GMT -8
If what you want is to be a Vicissitude artist, you don't HAVE to be Tzimisce. There is an option, brought up in "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" that Vicissitude is communicable, a disease. One can develop the discipline without training, simply from having either fed from a vampire who has it (though not from the Vaulderie), or — in extreme cases — even if it has only been used against you. After spending the usual 10 XP for the first dot, additional improvement costs the usual out-of-clan price of 7XP x current, but does not require a teacher. Just a thought. I had a Toreador antitribu in one game I rand who had 4 dots in V-tude. clanhanna , you've hit on part of it - Vicissitude is a Discipline that I've found difficult to divorce from the core character concept, and I've thought a lot about drifting the character into a new Clan while keeping Vicissitude. Originally, the Tzimisce had appealed to me because of their history as vampire aristocrats with ties to ancestral soil, as the character had grown up on a plantation estate in his mortal life. That leaves Old Clan Tzimisce as an option, but they seem even less likely to go Cam. What to do! I noted that you said Toreador Antitribu - was this an instance in which Vicissitude was well suited for some more sadistic art forms? It's seeming more and more like Vicissitude and depravity walk hand in hand. But I liked the idea of a Kindred (perhaps foolhardily) believing he could successfully restrict his use of the Discipline to beneficial applications like surgeries and facelifts, and then finding himself tempted to go too far.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 14, 2017 21:28:10 GMT -8
So much for a Camarilla Tzimisce plastic surgeon specializing in removing tails resulting from failed Frenzy checks. Don't let some random internet post dissuade you from playing the character you want to play. This, so much.... In your book, don't tell me what I can't do. Tell me how rare it is.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Mar 15, 2017 9:05:23 GMT -8
Just tell those Camarilla brownnosers youre a Caitiff.
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Post by Probie Tim on Mar 15, 2017 9:39:12 GMT -8
Just tell those Camarilla brownnosers youre a Caitiff. That is usually the explanation which works the best.
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