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Post by Wakefield on Apr 18, 2017 15:16:49 GMT -8
I wasn't really basing my argument on how horrifying it was or was not, but mostly that in the modern nights, Ventrue don't have to go out and do the work themselves, or make certain events happen. They go out and use tools at their disposal to surround themselves with the chattel that they need that are already there. You're not working with a small medieval village of people, but a city that is interconnected by cell phones, internet, support groups, and whatever else you might think of. Dark Ages is certainly a whole 'nother beast to conquer. No pun intended. Vampire, when played as intended by White Wolf/Onyx Path/what have you, is all about how far will you go to sate your Beast, while still remaining human. Humanity was not at it's best during these times, so the monsters that live among us were worse. I assume, Ventrue, being the nobles, often brought back the victims of raiding parties for their herd, for a herd like the above mentioned rape victims. They likely had more of a hand in the events that create the perfect herd, but that's a consequence of a time when the world was smaller but also less connected. War and armies ruled the day and were the most effective tools at the disposal of the High Clans. This whole thread has gotten me thinking about how much certain people gloss over various Clan Weaknesses. Most people just take a herd to circumvent a Ventrue's weakness but many don't think about where that herd comes from, or why they keep coming back to be fed on. It's definitely up there with one of the more inhuman Flaws when you sit down and think about it. Ditto. Taking a Herd and molding it to suit a Prey Exclusion could and should be much more of a source of psychological and moral angst. And in general, Clan Weaknesses/Flaws should be complications - somewhere between a major hindrance and some chronic but minor pain in the butt (not a Clan Flaw, but a similar level of irritation would be the Prince from the V:TR novels who needs a barber to shave off his mountain-man beard every evening).
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 18, 2017 16:41:29 GMT -8
I wasn't really basing my argument on how horrifying it was or was not, but mostly that in the modern nights, Ventrue don't have to go out and do the work themselves, or make certain events happen. They go out and use tools at their disposal to surround themselves with the chattel that they need that are already there. You're not working with a small medieval village of people, but a city that is interconnected by cell phones, internet, support groups, and whatever else you might think of. Dark Ages is certainly a whole 'nother beast to conquer. No pun intended. Vampire, when played as intended by White Wolf/Onyx Path/what have you, is all about how far will you go to sate your Beast, while still remaining human. Humanity was not at it's best during these times, so the monsters that live among us were worse. I assume, Ventrue, being the nobles, often brought back the victims of raiding parties for their herd, for a herd like the above mentioned rape victims. They likely had more of a hand in the events that create the perfect herd, but that's a consequence of a time when the world was smaller but also less connected. War and armies ruled the day and were the most effective tools at the disposal of the High Clans. This whole thread has gotten me thinking about how much certain people gloss over various Clan Weaknesses. Most people just take a herd to circumvent a Ventrue's weakness but many don't think about where that herd comes from, or why they keep coming back to be fed on. It's definitely up there with one of the more inhuman Flaws when you sit down and think about it. Ditto. Taking a Herd and molding it to suit a Prey Exclusion could and should be much more of a source of psychological and moral angst. And in general, Clan Weaknesses/Flaws should be complications - somewhere between a major hindrance and some chronic but minor pain in the butt (not a Clan Flaw, but a similar level of irritation would be the Prince from the V:TR novels who needs a barber to shave off his mountain-man beard every evening). That's actually one of the problems I had with 2E with The Cleansing, which allows for Vampires to make changes their appearance permanent. A huge flaw for vampires gets the ax.
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Post by The Northman on Apr 18, 2017 17:25:10 GMT -8
I'd never allow that to circumvent a clan weakness that effects appearance, though. And 'huge flaw' is relative. A pair of clippers and 15-20 min a night were already accomplishing that level of magic.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 18, 2017 18:47:29 GMT -8
I'd never allow that to circumvent a clan weakness that effects appearance, though. And 'huge flaw' is relative. A pair of clippers and 15-20 min a night were already accomplishing that level of magic. It's not a rule I allow as I think a big part of being a vampire is the Anachronism that comes with it. The Cleansing includes not just hair but also tattoos, piercings, scars, etc.
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Post by The Northman on Apr 18, 2017 18:53:14 GMT -8
I can see your point, I just think different storytellers are going to put different premiums on that issue. I've had a few characters in games who benefitted greatly (and thematically) from being able to add ink, for example. And making scars with meaning permanent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 16:30:51 GMT -8
I'd never allow that to circumvent a clan weakness that effects appearance, though. And 'huge flaw' is relative. A pair of clippers and 15-20 min a night were already accomplishing that level of magic. It's not a rule I allow as I think a big part of being a vampire is the Anachronism that comes with it. The Cleansing includes not just hair but also tattoos, piercings, scars, etc. The cleansing fits thematically with torpor in 2nd VtR. There is a cycle of forgetting and reinventing yourself that happens in VtR. In that context it makes total sense.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 21, 2017 19:17:09 GMT -8
You do have a point there, with how Torpor works, just not something I'm a fan of as I've always very much enjoyed that idea of vampires not being able to adapt easily.
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