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Post by The Northman on Jun 27, 2017 14:43:06 GMT -8
Any change we can get a mod split so Zac can have his own thread?
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 27, 2017 15:58:25 GMT -8
I wasn't, actually. However if you think that link is is dismissive or a denial, then I don't see this conversation going anywhere. To me, that is respectful disagreement. They heard the complaints, looked into them, and disagree with the complaints. I read "We heard you. We read the posts. We don't agree with the charges leveled against him."
You can certainly disagree with their conclusions, but to characterize them as dismissive or a denial is a little disingenuous... IMO
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Post by vyrrk on Jun 28, 2017 8:06:41 GMT -8
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 28, 2017 8:36:34 GMT -8
Soooo, at the top they say the playtest didn't raise any red flags about CONTENT or core system... right...
Then a few paragraphs later they basically say "oh sorry, we forgot to say it was for MATURE people, oops, our bad." You can be generous there and choose to see that in a more innocent light, but at this point, with what came before, I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. That just looks like a full-on diss to anyone who had anything negative to say about the playtest.
Oh, and in the Q&A they take the time to answer questions about a potentially pedophile character, and a very dickish use of the word "triggered." But wait a moment! I thought there had been no red flags! I thought everything had gone swimmingly.
I can see them trying, I can even see what they're going for, but Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick, they really need to learn how to communicate with the fanbase. I'm not one to be super-easily offended, not that I never get offended or more properly just pissed off, but there are plenty of people out there who already don't like nuWhite Wolf so they really should be more careful if they don't want to keep shooting themselves in the foot before their game even comes out.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jun 28, 2017 9:15:37 GMT -8
I think, at this point, that if I were going to abandon V20 in favor of some other Vampire RPG, I'd go with the nWoD stuff (which is now Chronicles of Darkness, I guess?)
I'm not real impressed with nWW so far.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 28, 2017 10:28:28 GMT -8
I would highly recommend Chronicles of Darkness, it is a very solid system, and greatly streamlined compared to OWoD. OWoD Vampire still has the better setting overall, but that's largely because the entire NWoD line, both 1st and 2nd editions are deliberately generic setting-wise. You could always port OWoD setting elements into Chronicles of Darkness games though, especially Vampire.
All that being said, and in spite of nWW's tone-deaf and foot-in-mouth approach to PR and game development, part of me is still kinda curious to see what they'll churn out. I just wish they could get their damn shit together and stop being such a bunch of try-hard edge-lords. They look so damn desperate and juvenile.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 28, 2017 13:51:06 GMT -8
Soooo, at the top they say the playtest didn't raise any red flags about CONTENT or core system... right... they really need to learn how to communicate with the fanbase. I'm not one to be super-easily offended, not that I never get offended or more properly just pissed off, but there are plenty of people out there who already don't like nuWhite Wolf so they really should be more careful if they don't want to keep shooting themselves in the foot before their game even comes out. You are wilfully misreading their first paragraph (let me emphasise the key words): And let me spell it out for you. The first 100 playtesters in Berlin didn't raise and red flags about content, the rest of the world did. It's all very well asking them to communicate better. But you could help by reading better. (I can't believe i find myself defending White Wolf, I never had any love for their products, except Mage.)
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 28, 2017 13:54:06 GMT -8
What they will do to Mage is what has me worried. The Nephandi, on a good day, make vampires look like schoolgirls. With this "edgier than thou" attitude, I really hope I dont get ti see my favourite game ruined.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 28, 2017 15:45:31 GMT -8
Soooo, at the top they say the playtest didn't raise any red flags about CONTENT or core system... right... they really need to learn how to communicate with the fanbase. I'm not one to be super-easily offended, not that I never get offended or more properly just pissed off, but there are plenty of people out there who already don't like nuWhite Wolf so they really should be more careful if they don't want to keep shooting themselves in the foot before their game even comes out. You are wilfully misreading their first paragraph (let me emphasise the key words): And let me spell it out for you. The first 100 playtesters in Berlin didn't raise and red flags about content, the rest of the world did. It's all very well asking them to communicate better. But you could help by reading better. (I can't believe i find myself defending White Wolf, I never had any love for their products, except Mage.) Fair enough, I'm not above admitting when I mess up, or misread something so you got me there. However, I can't help but notice how you so willfully ignored everything else in their statement and in my post, as well as how you so willfully cherry picked portions of my post to make a point. Aren't we all just a lovely bunch of willful individuals. EDIT:I'm going to add a less reactionary portion to my initial response to clarify my issue with your response to my post. So you've managed to point out that I misread a small portion of a larger article, ok, I won't deny it. But what does that prove? What does that accomplish? So you've managed to prove that I can sometimes misread things. So what? I'm human, I fuck up sometimes. I never claimed otherwise and I don't think anyone assumed otherwise either. So you didn't really reveal anything new. Does that small mistake on my part somehow invalidate everything else I pointed out in my post (the one you responded to)? No. I made a mistake on one point but the rest of my argument is no less valid for it. As for my wish for nWW to learn to communicate better, it isn't so much about them being more technically accurate, but rather being more sensitive to the audience they are addressing and how that audience is going to react to their communications. Like I said in my post, nWW "apologizing" for forgetting to mention that the game was supposed to be for "Mature" audiences is basically a non-apology and kind of a slap in the face of everyone who voiced dissatisfaction by way of implying that they clearly weren't "mature" enough to "get" it. Kind of like that bullshit non-apology that people sometimes use: "Oh I'm so sorry you FEEL that way." I wouldn't mind if they made technical mistakes in their communications, not that I've seen any so far, it's their chronic tone-deaf approach, and frankly not-so-subtle insulting tone that bother me, and quite a few other people it would seem. What bothers me the most about it though is that I'm not sure that it's accidental, I do wonder if they aren't doing this on purpose for shock value and to draw attention to themselves. And it pisses me off to think that it might actually work. I hate seeing shitty behavior being rewarded.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 28, 2017 16:12:28 GMT -8
"I'm sorry you were offended by the shitty thing I said."
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 28, 2017 17:35:07 GMT -8
"I'm sorry you were offended by the shitty thing I said." LOL How very nuWhite Wolfian of you.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 28, 2017 20:48:25 GMT -8
What they will do to Mage is what has me worried. The Nephandi, on a good day, make vampires look like schoolgirls. With this "edgier than thou" attitude, I really hope I dont get ti see my favourite game ruined. I'm sure domestic violence discussed in previous versions of Werewolf will be handled with complete maturity.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 28, 2017 20:49:57 GMT -8
I think, at this point, that if I were going to abandon V20 in favor of some other Vampire RPG, I'd go with the nWoD stuff (which is now Chronicles of Darkness, I guess?) I'm not real impressed with nWW so far. I wasn't a huge fan of Requiem until 2E but they've done a fantastic job with it. Helps that the system as a whole is pretty solid. Stay away from Mage though.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 28, 2017 21:36:22 GMT -8
Does that small mistake on my part somehow invalidate everything else I pointed out in my post (the one you responded to)? Honestly? Yes. A little bit, since the rest of your argument was predicated on that mistake. In fact, you really double down here.... See, this is kinda what I am talking about... I read that article and read it as "Hey guys, we ran this in Berlin and no one said anything, when we released it here, we probably should have mentioned that this was a TV-MA/ NC-17 rated document, just so you would have known that going in." OK, see, this is what I was talking about earlier. You are a customer, not an owner. You don't get to decide what is or is not in their game, and they aren't tone deaf, or insulting if they don't cave to your demands. They get to write their game, however they want to write it, and the only thing you get to do is decide whether or not you want to buy it. That's it. When they ask for feedbag, by all means you provide it, but if they don't agree with you, they don't agree with you. That's not dismissive, or tone-deaf. That's a difference of opinion/intent. Let me give you an example.... I was writing a particular story. I asked a friend to read it, and let me know what he thought. He came back and some of the feedback was that he didn't like a particular section because, the way I had written it read like a Hong Kong action film. Since that was exactly what I was trying to do, I didn't change it. And let me be clear. There is nothing wrong with you not liking the direction they're taking. What's wrong is the presumption that they have some sort of obligation to listen to you. They don't. I HATE Stephen King. I think he's a terrible writer. He's under zero obligation to listen to my opinion, or adapt to it. He writes what he writes, and I get to choose whether or not I want to read it (HELL NO!!!) and either decision is valid. If you don't like the direction they're taking, walk away. It's a legitimate choice. Enough of that, and maybe you will sway their opinion.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 29, 2017 0:15:44 GMT -8
This will be my last post on this subject, as I've spent too much time investigating Zac Smith etc already, when I should be tidying my gaming room for a game I'm hitting on Saturday. (And it's a real mess. Needs a lot of tidying) And working on my thesis. But I feel I can't go finish without clarifying where I'm coming from: 1. I am not offended by anything in the pre-alpha. 2. It's OK that you (and others) are, RudeAlert, and that you make your feelings known to White Wolf in feedback. ayslyn will attest that I get offended by stuff (mostly theangrygm) too, and am not shy of offering feedback, neither is he shy of calling me a "white knight" or sjw 3. I disagree that their reponse is disrespectful, but on that I fear I will not sway you. 4. It's also OK to not buy V5. But I urge you not to make that decision until the final product hits the shelves. This is a "pre-alpha" playtest document, so I imagine many many changes before publication. Remember the Internet storm around early versions of D&D Next, and the almost universal praise for 5th ed when it finally appeared? 5. I've never liked Vampire: the whatevering games of whatever flavour, and this is why: Back in the nineties, when our group, formed in school in the previous decade, was dispersed and getting together was rare, our GM got into WW games in a big way. The first of course was Vampire, he sold it to us as a game where we get to play the monster, decending into a personal hell. My initial reaction was "why would we want to do that?" but as we discussed it, I was pursuaded of the potential for fun of roleplaying that moral conflict and loss of humanity. I read the books and was inspired by clan Toreador, I created a character who's exploitation of humans for blood was echoed by his exploitation of women as a pornographer. It turned out that half the group had read a different corebook, which I guess was called "Goths can be superheroes too". My old school friends didn't enjoy the first session at all. And my opinion of Vampire games (and players, sorry) was formed in that episode. The game is ultimately disappointing because it fails to live up to its promise of roleplaying damnation. Mage on the other hand, works because it doesn't role-play descent, but hubris, and as such the system and the promise are in closer alignment. 6. The chat around THIS edition over the last few weeks has intrigued me, 'cause it sounded like the mechanics are better aligned to that original premise of descent. I then read the playtest (with no intention of running it) and very much liked what I read. This feels in (unlplayed) mechanics and tone like the game I wanted to play back in the nineties. I still don't know if I'll buy it, but I'm closer to buying this edition than I was with any previous version. 7. Intrigued by the "who is this Zac Smith and why do people hate him?" question I spent too long reading old internet arguments. What I learned (among many things) is that an awful lot of the hate was from people repeating what they heard others say about the facts, not bothering to read the facts themselves. There's a word for this, it's called "hearsay". (I'm not accusing you of hearsay, RudeAlert, but the next point is pertinent.) 8. I can't say whether Zac is a nice guy or not, or indeed whether White Wolf people are, but in a febrile environment, where lots of people are repeating what others have said about them, I'm keen to make whatever tiny effort I can to point people to the facts. Hence I wanted to correct your misreading of their opening paragraph before somebody else reposted it with out referring to the original source.
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