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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 2:45:59 GMT -8
fredrix Does it really matter if they are nice or not? I'm sure there were plenty of bigots who were nice people, so long as you weren't a part of their hated group. I had all the evidence I needed when I saw the character in the game that somehow oddly resembles a person he feuds with and manages to be highly offensive. When it comes to WW as whole, they should have left the pedophilla shit alone. Honestly, they should have left most of the edgy stuff alone. Unless their goal is to join FATAL, this was a bad decision. It may be a world of darkness, but its also a world of bad marketing. The worst part is it is a world of bad marketing for all RPG's. Teenagers love vampire. Making a vampire game that shouldn't be sold to teenagers is a pants on head style stupid move. As to their defense that it's only a 'feeding restriction' and not pedophilla? Oh please. Sneaking into girls locker rooms must not be sexual for them either. It's just this weird supernatural thing I have to do. No one has a boner here. Nope! (To be 100% clear, I don't do that or even think about it. It was just an example, so please don't read into it.) Also, if drinking blood is supposed to be better than sex, how can you say its not pedophilla? He can only drink from children and teens and its better than sex... If for no other reason than the whole Pavlov's dog's thing, this guy would be a pediphile.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 29, 2017 6:40:56 GMT -8
ayslyn will attest that I get offended by stuff (mostly theangrygm) too, and am not shy of offering feedback, neither is he shy of calling me a "white knight" or sjw ^.^ White Knight, yes, occasionally.... SJW, no. I don't think you're that bad. ^.- While we might disagree on a large number of points, I do respect where you are coming from. I reserve the SJW tag for a very, very special kind of snowflake. ^.^
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 29, 2017 10:02:42 GMT -8
[Snip] When it comes to WW as whole, they should have left the pedophilla shit alone. Honestly, they should have left most of the edgy stuff alone. Unless their goal is to join FATAL, this was a bad decision. [Snip] This is only one point, and I really don't feel like rehashing everything else because I realize this whole thing is going nowhere, but this is the first time that I've come across an RPG that actually reminded me of FATAL. It's the only other game I've ever come across that has rules for FORCING PCs to commit rape. I would be surprised if it was the only one, but that's the one I've come across and it's pretty well known for being a giant pile of steaming horror. So if this is the type of direction they aim to go in, even if it's only pre-alpha, doing something that so closely emulates FATAL is a very bad start, and as such I just can't take them in good faith when they claim to "apologize" for forgetting to include a "Mature" warning label. Seriously, who the fuck doesn't already expect that by default from a Vampire game? Anyone interested enough to have downloaded that playtest is almost guaranteed to be an Old Vamp player, so if THOSE people are bothered by it, that's saying something. Also, keep in mind, this shit got me to agree with Steven! I don't know if you've noticed before but we haven't always seen eye-to-eye.
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Post by The Northman on Jun 29, 2017 10:27:07 GMT -8
It's fine that you don't like the game, but if you think this is somehow new you haven't been following the previous editions of the game. The survival of every single character is dependent on a non-consensual act that you've made the case for being of a sexual nature.
Toothy. Vagina. Monsters.
But *now* they're 'try hard, edgier than thou...', etc?
Dudes. And Lady dudes. It's always been like this. Maybe the world (or you) changed around it, but that's a completely different argument.
On a sidenote, the feeding restriction is a curse. It's not like characters get to look through the big catalog of feeding restrictions and pick the one they think is most awesome. That's pretty terrifying.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 29, 2017 11:35:44 GMT -8
The issue here is more that while oldWhite Wolf did have a reputation for going after "shock value" they did kinda smooth things over through the course of the initial company's run. And the New World of Darkness largely managed to avoid the "oh look at us, we're so 'dark' and edgy" kind of vibe... well, excluding Beast the Primordial, that was... unfortunate. With nuWhite Wolf, it kinda seems like they're heading for the bad old days all over again.
And I don't mind the game being dark, hell I agree that no version of Vampire from White Wolf or Onyx Path truly lives up to its description of being games about playing horrible monsters. Though I do like Requiem 2nd overall, even that one doesn't feel as horrific as it seems it could or should be. But even having said that, there's good dark and there's bad dark, there's good shock value and there's bad shock value. As far as I'm concerned it seems to me that nuWhite Wolf can't tell the difference between the good and the bad. Their approach to shock value and edginess is based on the easiest and cheapest tricks, rape, pedophilia, PCs turning out to be human traffickers; those aren't deep, they're not profound or even well thought out, they're like jump scares, cheap, easy, effective, but ultimately just noise with transient purpose at best.
For those who don't see the problems that I see either in nuWhite Wolf hiring Zak S. or their approach to communicating with their fans, or some of the things they seem to be aiming for in the game, that's great for you but for me that it's definitely an impediment. But like I already said in a prior post, if they can manage to put out an awesome game that doesn't feel like it's filled with cheap puerile trash, and they can do so without giving a platform to shitty people, I'll certainly give it a look. And a big bonus if they can make it feel really dark and horrific without having to resort to adolescent "edginess."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 11:52:51 GMT -8
It's fine that you don't like the game, but if you think this is somehow new you haven't been following the previous editions of the game. The survival of every single character is dependent on a non-consensual act that you've made the case for being of a sexual nature. Toothy. Vagina. Monsters. But *now* they're 'try hard, edgier than thou...', etc? Dudes. And Lady dudes. It's always been like this. Maybe the world (or you) changed around it, but that's a completely different argument. On a sidenote, the feeding restriction is a curse. It's not like characters get to look through the big catalog of feeding restrictions and pick the one they think is most awesome. That's pretty terrifying. Actually, that's exactly what players do. You don't pick ventrue and then get told by your GM, "oh, B.T.Dubs, you are pedo!"
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sbloyd
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WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
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Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 29, 2017 12:10:05 GMT -8
(This is prolly going to sound familiar to you, Northman, since we talked about it on Slack.)
To me, Vampire was all about trying to hold onto your humanity and fighting off the evil inside you. The tagline, "A Beast I Am Lest A Beast I Become" summed it up: you do the little evils to avoid having to do the big ones. You hold onto your humanity by being a lesser monster instead of a greater one.
The Sabbat, way back, represented the boogeymen in the shadows, the ones who don't hold onto their humanity, the ones that run wild, uncivilized. The greater monsters.
So when they coalesced the Sabbat into PC-able splats it defanged them on the one hand, and on the other took away what (to me) were some of the most important themes of the game (since a bunch of people were more interested in playing Sabbat Murder Machines than anything else (casting no aspersions your way - I've heard of some great Sabbat games, just never witnessed one).
Which leads me to why I'm disappointed in the V5 playtest. When I heard their goal was to hearken back to V1 Vampire, I was looking forward to seeing some of the themes I like most revisited. But by presenting the roadmap in the playtest document that they have - by giving us examples of "These are the kinds of characters we expect you to play" - it seems less like the focus will be on trying to hold onto your humanity against difficult odds, and more on just being monstrous.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 29, 2017 12:30:29 GMT -8
Toothy. Vagina. Monsters. This is not a point I would stick with. That was from the Tzimisce Clan Book, which were not originally a playable clan, and honestly should have stayed that way. Tzimisce are notably, utterly inhuman. They're not something players are supposed to be or aspire to achieve. They don't even really fit themes that people claim they're liking from 5E. Tzimisce revel in their inhumanity. They're not tortured by it, or struggling against it. They simply abandon it. EDIT: I somehow missed sbloyd's post before I did mine and he summed it up much better.
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Post by The Northman on Jun 29, 2017 12:59:44 GMT -8
That speaks to my point perfectly, though. That the game has always been this shade. There have been characters presented as sample PC's in the back of lots of clan books who've clearly discarded worrying much about humanity prior to the game starting.
And the character "we" are all up in arms over appears to be attempting to cling to her humanity by associating with less fossilized kindred.
But I'm really over dissecting an entire edition off of a couple press clippings and 2 pdf's. I'll be happy to continue the conversation when we have more actual info.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 23:58:47 GMT -8
That speaks to my point perfectly, though. That the game has always been this shade. There have been characters presented as sample PC's in the back of lots of clan books who've clearly discarded worrying much about humanity prior to the game starting. And the character "we" are all up in arms over appears to be attempting to cling to her humanity by associating with less fossilized kindred. But I'm really over dissecting an entire edition off of a couple press clippings and 2 pdf's. I'll be happy to continue the conversation when we have more actual info. First impressions matter? The module that was released as part of the playtest is a portion of the first impression people have of the game. It's a deliberate choice by the designers, who want it played by people at popular conventions. It's a giant sign that say, "This is who we are!" Sure, they might revise that message by the time the book is actually released, should enough people respond negatively to their releases. I think the damage will have been done by then though. You don't get a second chance at a first impression. Combine a questionable choice in game designers and a module that squick's out veteran vampire players and you have a vote of no confidence in your company. Put another way, would you buy from someone who you knew was a Neo Nazi if they 'cleaned their image up'? You already know what they are all about. Sure, they might decide to keep that Nazi stuff on the down low because it hurts profits, but we already know who they are. It's too late to put the rabbit back in the hat.
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Post by The Northman on Jun 30, 2017 4:16:54 GMT -8
Well at least we aren't exaggerating for effect.
Enjoy the rest of this one, kiddos.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 30, 2017 9:45:13 GMT -8
Well at least we aren't exaggerating for effect. Enjoy the rest of this one, kiddos. There's nothing wrong in exaggerating for effect when making a point if that's all you're doing. I seriously doubt Steven was actually comparing nuWhite Wolf to Nazis, but it's a damn good way to make a point. Would it be easier on you if he'd simply compared them to "assholes" instead?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 13:02:25 GMT -8
Well at least we aren't exaggerating for effect. Enjoy the rest of this one, kiddos. There's nothing wrong in exaggerating for effect when making a point if that's all you're doing. I seriously doubt Steven was actually comparing nuWhite Wolf to Nazis, but it's a damn good way to make a point. Would it be easier on you if he'd simply compared them to "assholes" instead? Insert whatever group identity you want. It doesn't really matter. "We know you are X, so hiding it now doesn't help."
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Post by shadrack on Jul 6, 2017 7:48:05 GMT -8
I'm actually pretty interested in this iteration of the game. I think that feeding and its consequences often got hand waived in games. The result was often fang-superheroes. Heck, herd was basically designed to hand waive feeding.
The rules are clearly pushing hunger to the forefront. I was initially concerned about the hunger dice being in every role. Maybe only if you used your vampiric abilities? But as I thought about it, the hunger is a defining characteristic of vampires, probably even the defining characteristic. So yes, as a vampire you are hungry... Always hungry... Unless you've recently given in to the hunger fully.
(there was some mention of blood potency for lower Gen vamps, can't remember the details right now, but older vamps didn't succumb to their hunger as easily as younger)
Not super thrilled about the ST taking away player agency bits. But if those parts stay in the rules as written, I'm not worried that the ST and the player can come up with some alternative ways to deal with those issues. (I bet they'll change some though).
Yes that one vampire in the play test is a super duper monster. I state that as a given. Did they go over the top? Maybe... It is a game full of horrible monsters. Did they intend to push it? Probably. Was it in poor taste? Also probably. (hurting kids is a hot-button issue for most people, and that is well known) I have to say though, this scenario seems stacked against the players. It could easily end up with Ventrues dying due to their feeding restrictions, so maybe that will work itself out. (actually looks like a TPK wouldn't be unheard of.)
I like Ken Hite's (sp?) work so I'm also encouraged by that.
Zak S. => I'm good with Zak S. being on the creative team. I was going to write more, but it feels really off-topic, so I sum up. I like his rpg work (I own Vornheim and A Red and Pleasant Land) . I am satisfied with his responses to the accusations that have been made. If you want to chat more, that's cool send a DM.
Current opinion=> will probably buy in for this one.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 6, 2017 7:58:38 GMT -8
Huh. I didn't realize Zak S. was writing Vampire now.
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