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Post by Kainguru on Dec 18, 2017 6:08:14 GMT -8
So I walked out of the theatre pretty hyped and happy because ... Star Wars. Once the initial rush had passed I thought it bit more about it and allowed my inner critic an opportunity. I WANT to like this movie, I really really want to, BUT ... it’s on a par with the prequels not the original trilogy. Too many glaring plot holes and too intent on dismissing what has gone before. By before I mean episode 7 (The Force Awakens). Phasma - totally wasted on screen and now no more. Leia - daughter of krypton flying thru hard vacuum and an airlock that is just a single door? Holdo (I think, Laura Dern’s character) - why not just tell her Captains her plan, she obviously that led the hanger crew because they were refuelling the transports. The Chase - a slow motion attrition exercise reminiscent of 4e combat. Why not send the FASTER Ties to cut off their escape? Or light jump a cruiser ahead of them and close in with a pincer movement? The Casino Planet - existed purely for exposition, see Holdo above. Everybodies plan failed. Snoke - another wasted character. Luke Skywalker - was this what they intended in Episode 7? If he went to Arch-To to die alone and forgotten why leave a secret map to find him? It looks gorgeous and it runs a long time - too long given that the story basically doesn’t advance for anyone. BTW when did The First Order find the time to dominate the Galaxy when their main weapon, Star Killer Base, was just blown up the day before? And they’d only just publically announced their ambitions of galactic domination the day before that?. I really want to like it but there is this disappointing aftertaste once I’ve had time to digest it. Thoughts? Aaron
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Post by Fiona on Dec 18, 2017 9:43:36 GMT -8
I'm in total agreement. I was very disappointed by the film, and I have very little expectation going forward.
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Post by ericfromnj on Dec 18, 2017 9:44:43 GMT -8
I enjoyed any time the force users were on screen and anytime they were not life was full of bad decisions and random coincidences.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 18, 2017 10:44:09 GMT -8
I enjoyed any time the force users were on screen and anytime they were not life was full of bad decisions and random coincidences. Exactly - and coming in at 2 hours the bad decisions and random coincidences became all that there was. I also hoped for some more detail on The Jedi and their origin, given they were literally in the original home of the founding of the Order. Tell us who they were if you’re so set on saying they should be no more. We got a set of dusty books no one appears to have bothered to actually read, Yoda laughing at an inside joke (you have to be a force ghost to understand) and very disparate powers - ie: an untrained Leia can survive an explosion, catastrophic decompression and hard vacuum while Jedi Master Luke dies because he exerted himself too much projecting an illusion. Luke Skywalker and Elvis share one thing in common - they both died from straining too much while seated: All Luke needed was a hamburger in one hand and a silver jump suit BUT they did undo the sacred bloodline/midachlorines nonsense - anyone has the potential to be a force user again. Aaron
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Post by akavidar on Dec 18, 2017 16:37:17 GMT -8
I've always thought that Leia would have been a much better Jedi than Luke. Just the lack of whining alone ....
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Dec 18, 2017 23:04:51 GMT -8
BUT they did undo the sacred bloodline/midachlorines nonsense - anyone has the potential to be a force user again. Which alone makes it my fourth favourite Star Wars film ever.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 19, 2017 18:47:04 GMT -8
Overall I still enjoyed the movie, but rank it below Rogue One and The Force Awakens. Phasma - totally wasted on screen and now no more. I absolutely agree. I don't know why everyone goes nuts over her when she has such little screen time. My hope is, as this is pulp, characters aren't really dead until we see the body. Leia - daughter of krypton flying thru hard vacuum and an airlock that is just a single door? Yeah, that scene was rather bad. Was it meant to make us think Leia died because Carrie Fisher died? Was it meant to remind us that Leia is force sensitive? The exchange between her and Kylo Ren mere moments before did that. I don't know why it was there. Holdo (I think, Laura Dern’s character) - why not just tell her Captains her plan, she obviously that led the hanger crew because they were refuelling the transports. I'll admit that as the movie went on and she provided no plan of escape, I thought she might be a traitor. But for the scene to work, the movie had to keep the audience in the dark about everything and when you go back and look at it? Yeah. She would have had to tell other people about it, and the whole thing falls apart. Also, we're constantly reminded that the Resistance members we see on screen are the full extent of the group. With so few people, it really stretches believe that Poe would never have met her before. The Chase - a slow motion attrition exercise reminiscent of 4e combat. Why not send the FASTER Ties to cut off their escape? Or light jump a cruiser ahead of them and close in with a pincer movement? It was meant to build tension, I guess. But it just seemed foolish for both sides. Let's keep wasting energy by firing at their shields when we could just jump in front of them and finish it now. The Casino Planet - existed purely for exposition, see Holdo above. We also needed to see aliens as comic relief again. Which I really don't like. Oh well. BTW when did The First Order find the time to dominate the Galaxy when their main weapon, Star Killer Base, was just blown up the day before? And they’d only just publicly announced their ambitions of galactic domination the day before that? That was my main gripe. What the fuck was the New Republic doing between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens to let the First Order get so powerful? And where did the First Order get the resources to build the Star Killer Base and that massive fleet of ships so quickly? In all honesty, my feeling is that if the New Republic just let the Space Nazis go off and rebuild everything, then they kind of deserve to lose for being so stupid. The Resistance really needs better tactics, too. Congratulations. You wasted all those bombers on a single run to destroy what? One ship? Oh, but the Dreadnaught is a fleet killer! It had to be stopped. So what? Last time I checked, you guys had no fleet. Another thing. I'll have to go back and rewatch the originals, but I always had the sense that there were multiple cells of the Rebel Alliance fighting against the Empire, and we just happened to be focused on one particular group. If the Empire is this giant, galaxy-spanning organization, doesn't it stand to reason that other people are fighting against it in other areas of the galaxy? But in The Last Jedi we're told over and over again that the Resistance members we're seeing on screen are the full extend of the movement. At the end of the movie, the entirety of the Resistance can fit onboard the Falcon. There is basically no one left. In addition to making any Resistance fleet/army we see in Episode 9 completely unbelievable (where did you suddenly get all those ships, personnel, and resources from?), it also made the universe seem incredibly small. You're telling me that no one else in the entire galaxy gives a shit about the First Order? Well then. OK. Kinda makes the whole thing seem insignificant. I do disagree with you about Snoke. When he popped up in TFA I rolled my eyes hard at another Sith Lord master. I couldn't have cared less about what his backstory was. So when Kylo Ren split him in half, I almost cheered. So long pointless character I didn't give two shits about. Don't come back as a Force Ghost.
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Post by EricaOdd on Dec 19, 2017 20:13:05 GMT -8
When they went to the casino planet, I kept hoping that the code-breaker would be Lando. I mean... come ON! CASINO PLANET!
I see some of the problems people have with it, but overall I did like it.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 19, 2017 22:15:07 GMT -8
I'm sad that Billy Dee Williams hasn't made a cameo as Lando. They haven't even mentioned the character at all, which also disappoints me. Like, come on! As close as Han and Lando appeared to be by the end of the original trilogy, you think he'd have something to say about the guy's death.
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Post by chronovore on Dec 19, 2017 22:18:14 GMT -8
I also thought Maz was referring to Lando. The Last Jedi worked on nearly every level for me. I've been enjoying how divisive it has been, but I've already seen it talked about much more than anyone discussed The Force Awakens. If anything, the parts that can be criticized are also the parts for which it can be praised — particularly for not being completely obvious across the board. In particular, I enjoyed this article's points: filmcrithulk.blog/2017/12/15/the-force-belongs-to-us-the-last-jedis-beautiful-refocusing-of-star-wars/Most of anything, I like that we're arguably done with the Skywalker-centric focus of Star Wars. It's bugged me that Luke was essentially a hereditary heir to his father's strength with the Force. If the Force is truly universal, it should be a matter of intuition or study, but not genetics. It also refutes the cult-of-personality repeatedly - in the same way that we got "You're the Han Solo?!" in TFA, we get Rose pulling a similar starstruck routine on Finn before realizing that he's trying to escape, and quickly dashing her hero worship. We see the same thing happen with Rey as she comes to terms with Luke's unwillingness to act. The message that most strikes true for me is that it's up to us, each of us, to be the hero we want to see in the world.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 19, 2017 22:32:10 GMT -8
The message that most strikes true for me is that it's up to us, each of us, to be the hero we want to see in the world. And yet I've already seen articles titled "The identity of Force Broom Kid Revealed!" or "Who is Force Broom Kid?" They totally missed the point. Force Broom kid is intentionally a nobody. Because the Force belongs to everyone, not just the Jedi.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 20, 2017 1:59:26 GMT -8
I also thought Maz was referring to Lando. The Last Jedi worked on nearly every level for me. I've been enjoying how divisive it has been, but I've already seen it talked about much more than anyone discussed The Force Awakens. If anything, the parts that can be criticized are also the parts for which it can be praised — particularly for not being completely obvious across the board. In particular, I enjoyed this article's points: filmcrithulk.blog/2017/12/15/the-force-belongs-to-us-the-last-jedis-beautiful-refocusing-of-star-wars/Most of anything, I like that we're arguably done with the Skywalker-centric focus of Star Wars. It's bugged me that Luke was essentially a hereditary heir to his father's strength with the Force. If the Force is truly universal, it should be a matter of intuition or study, but not genetics. It also refutes the cult-of-personality repeatedly - in the same way that we got "You're the Han Solo?!" in TFA, we get Rose pulling a similar starstruck routine on Finn before realizing that he's trying to escape, and quickly dashing her hero worship. We see the same thing happen with Rey as she comes to terms with Luke's unwillingness to act. The message that most strikes true for me is that it's up to us, each of us, to be the hero we want to see in the world. I don't mind the redirection of Star Wars, especially getting rid of sacred bloodlines etc, but it's HOW it was done rather than the end result ie: the actual journey to the end point in the story was sloppy/poorly written. for example, why not give old fanboys like me what they wanted - Luke Skywalker in full on Jedi Master mode THEN have him sacrifice himself ... and why does that matter? because for 10yr old me, growing up in a new country and still on the long road of recovery after 2 major surgeries the year before, Luke Skywalker was my hero/role model/whatever you want to call it and the characters treatment was a bit inconsistent/disingenuous. I get Rian Johnson wants to 'burn the past', and I don't disagree if the franchise is to move forward, but he's basically been a bit of a dick in how he does it. He's the Eoin Coulfer of the Star Wars universe - Coulfer, for those who may not know, was the very talented (in his own right) author who was tasked with continuing The HitchHikers Guide to Galaxy: the book he produced failed on several fronts: the authors 'voice' was wrong, he totally missed the beats that made Douglas Adams original books work and he was too busy trying to insert HIS HitcHikers in place of the original rather than alongside the original. Basically the book was a well intentioned hot mess, good ideas poorly executed. TBH I kinda new this would be Luke's swan song because Mark Hamill was all over the media leading upto release, just like Harrison ford was for TFA. So the issue is not that Luke died, or even how he died ... it was how the character was portrayed as a character Aaron
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Post by EricaOdd on Dec 20, 2017 15:40:12 GMT -8
One really great thing about this movie?
YODA. WAS. A. MUPPET! Not some bad CGI.
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Post by chronovore on Dec 20, 2017 15:56:20 GMT -8
Huh. I actually liked the way Luke is portrayed in the film. Luke was whiny in ANH and ESB, restrained and confident in RotJ until Palpatine mocks his friends' impending deaths and threatens his sister. Then the veneer of both restraint and confidence are peeled away and the rage-monster underneath finds its way out, fueling Luke's attacks against his father. Luke has never been a purely good man. He's been naïve, rash, self-focused… (and let us not forget inappropriately driven by incestuous impulses ). It makes sense to me that, given his failed Jedi school, the betrayal of Ben Solo and, ultimately likely, a sense of fundamental betrayal of the vagaries of the Jedi Order itself. Obi-Wan's posthumous, disingenuous ramblings about things being true "from a certain point of view…" was just a way for him to get Luke to unwittingly face and hopefully kill his own father. That kind of stuff would make a man jaded. It would make him cynical. It would make him want to be left alone. So I very much liked the Luke of TLJ. Also, he's basically the kung-fu master with an annoying apprentice who won't leave him alone, so as a fan of the old classics, this resonated with me.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 20, 2017 17:01:27 GMT -8
Huh. I actually liked the way Luke is portrayed in the film. Luke was whiny in ANH and ESB, restrained and confident in RotJ until Palpatine mocks his friends' impending deaths and threatens his sister. Then the veneer of both restraint and confidence are peeled away and the rage-monster underneath finds its way out, fueling Luke's attacks against his father. Luke has never been a purely good man. He's been naïve, rash, self-focused… (and let us not forget inappropriately driven by incestuous impulses ). It makes sense to me that, given his failed Jedi school, the betrayal of Ben Solo and, ultimately likely, a sense of fundamental betrayal of the vagaries of the Jedi Order itself. Obi-Wan's posthumous, disingenuous ramblings about things being true "from a certain point of view…" was just a way for him to get Luke to unwittingly face and hopefully kill his own father. That kind of stuff would make a man jaded. It would make him cynical. It would make him want to be left alone. So I very much liked the Luke of TLJ. Also, he's basically the kung-fu master with an annoying apprentice who won't leave him alone, so as a fan of the old classics, this resonated with me. Precisely this. "But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!" *goes off to sulk when he can't* "But I was going to start a new Jedi Order!* goes off to sulk when he fucks it all up*
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