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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 4:04:25 GMT -8
So, I have a bunch of issues with MH2. I won't go into all of them, but there is one I do want to talk about:
Why do asexual's get a pass? No one else in the game gets to decide if they are or are not turned on.
If this is a game that demands 'queer' content, then why does this fit? Straight up; this is the hetero move, or the prude move, etc. "Oh sorry, I'm not into that." Well that's just too bad buttercup, the whole point of the freaking game is that you don't get to choose!
It's fine if you want to say that a game is for X audience. It's not fine to say this game excludes an audience. Offering an option to a certain class of people, but barring it from others is fucked up. It's further fucked up by the fact that it basically nullifies the premise of the game and what made it good in the first place. In an effort to include asexual's in a game they probably have no interest in, the author has managed to truly shoot their game in the foot.
The best part of the whole thing is that it's a radioactive topic. You can't tell people that you removed that option without seeming like a major douche. "What do you have against asexual's, man?" Nothing! But I kindly ask them to play the game about sexy monsters that the rest of us are intending to play or step aside.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Apr 14, 2018 1:19:28 GMT -8
Asexuals just don’t get turned on. That’s how asexuality is defined. To clarify, it is not abstention, or celibacy. They just can’t get turned on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 2:20:40 GMT -8
Asexuals just don’t get turned on. That’s how asexuality is defined. To clarify, it is not abstention, or celibacy. They just can’t get turned on. I don't think the author believes that. Further, the optional rule is extended to people who aren't asexual. Even beyond that, the option is selective, not a replacement for being turned on. Breaking this quote down: 1) The author believes asexuality is on a spectrum, so it can't simply be one thing (or no spectrum would exist). 2) This option is kosher for people with sexual trauma. What this means exactly is unclear, but it might include people who were erroneously labeled as gay and subsequently bullied because of it (aka heterosexuals). The big issue with this rule is that the author is trying to insert their politics and agenda even though it contradicts the design goal of the game. The entire game is set up to take away agency of thought and emotion from the player. This move lets selective people take back that agency by saying on a case by case basis if they want to be turned on or not. That's just not acceptable. It undermines what makes the game good and "queer" friendly. I listened to Adam West (the HJ host) talk about Monsterhearts on another podcast. Summarizing him, he posited that what made the game great is the implicit invitation to hit on anyone. No one was going to get offended or turn him down because of their sexuality. This rule means that someone at the table can introduce back into the game the uncertainty of getting shot down because said person "just can't feel attracted to you." Thus by making the game try to be inclusive of asexuals and people with 'sexual trauma' the game actually started to become less inclusive of everyone else. And we haven't even touched on how changing Turn Someone On to Shut Someone Down starts to mess with other areas of the game, such as sex moves (which don't tend to occur following a shut someone down).
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Apr 14, 2018 19:10:19 GMT -8
The big issue with this rule is that the author is trying to insert their politics and agenda... Uh, in the first place isn't the whole game based, in a sense, on their "politics and agenda"? That IS the game. ...even though it contradicts the design goal of the game. The entire game is set up to take away agency of thought and emotion from the player. This move lets selective people take back that agency by saying on a case by case basis if they want to be turned on or not. That's just not acceptable. It undermines what makes the game good and "queer" friendly. That was the way the game was designed, and then it changed, due to new views and other things, including nuances in the understanding the author had of others considered 'queer'. So, it seems to undermine what makes the game queer-friendly for you (and possibly others), but maybe it actually opens the game up to others who also had experiences that have made them queer, but that isn't specific to that mechanic. And you know what, yes it could be abused by someone trying to min-max the game so they don't get turned on by others. But then, are they really playing the right game?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 21:42:51 GMT -8
Uh, in the first place isn't the whole game based, in a sense, on their "politics and agenda"? That IS the game. Sorry, but I don't think so. I can bookend my game with as much political BS as I want and it still won't change the game itself. The game has one thing at it's core that makes it what it is, and that is that it takes away emotional agency from the character. Much like having to roll characters instead of creating them by choice, this forces players to take on a more improv style. The game tells you what you feel, then you get to say what you do about it. There is no "No, but" when it comes to feelings in this game. The game says "Yes, you feel X, and what will you do about it?" That was the way the game was designed, and then it changed, due to new views and other things, including nuances in the understanding the author had of others considered 'queer'. So, it seems to undermine what makes the game queer-friendly for you (and possibly others), but maybe it actually opens the game up to others who also had experiences that have made them queer, but that isn't specific to that mechanic. And you know what, yes it could be abused by someone trying to min-max the game so they don't get turned on by others. But then, are they really playing the right game? Yes, they would be. That's the problem. The 'new design' encourages you to do whatever you feel comfortable with, which includes being a homophobe.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Apr 14, 2018 22:19:43 GMT -8
Eh. Opinions.
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Post by ayslyn on Apr 15, 2018 7:21:34 GMT -8
The 'new design' encourages you to do whatever you feel comfortable with, which includes being a homophobe. Whoah now. There are worlds of difference between not being sexually interested in someone, and being a homophobe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 7:30:37 GMT -8
The 'new design' encourages you to do whatever you feel comfortable with, which includes being a homophobe. Whoah now. There are worlds of difference between not being sexually interested in someone, and being a homophobe. If I have sexual trauma that manifests as a fear of being raped by other men, then I would be a homophobe, would I not? It may seem like hyperbole, but it actually is an example of what this rule supports. And honestly, the rule doesn't protect anyone. It's a simulationist rule because it works on a per character basis and not a per player basis. So unless every character you play matches yourself for asexual spectrum/trauma's, you get no protection from this rule. Hence the game isn't even more inclusive of asexual players, only asexual characters.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Apr 15, 2018 9:43:12 GMT -8
I can answer this one: If I have sexual trauma that manifests as a fear of being raped by other men, then I would be a homophobe, would I not? No
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 18:55:48 GMT -8
I can answer this one: If I have sexual trauma that manifests as a fear of being raped by other men, then I would be a homophobe, would I not? No Here is the definition for homophobe: So, if said fear is not rational and not directed at straight people, that's exactly what it is.
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fredrix
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Apr 15, 2018 20:45:20 GMT -8
1. You described a fear of rape, not of homosexual men 2. Not all male-on-male rapists are homosexual
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 21:15:39 GMT -8
1. You described a fear of rape, not of homosexual men 2. Not all male-on-male rapists are homosexual Didn't think I had to get down into the nitty gritty of the scenario. I thought that was kind of crass and that people could read between the lines. Clearly I was mistaken.
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Post by natebob on Apr 21, 2018 8:57:38 GMT -8
It's possible that MH2 is not a game for you. Which is OK because all the other RPGs out there are for you. We live in a Golden Age of role playing with a plethora of games for every niche and special interest out there.
You can also play MH1 too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 21:20:49 GMT -8
It's possible that MH2 is not a game for you. Which is OK because all the other RPGs out there are for you. We live in a Golden Age of role playing with a plethora of games for every niche and special interest out there. You can also play MH1 too. Man, this right here is exactly why monsterhearts was created. By the way, there is a world of difference between a game not being "for you" and being something you aren't into. I'll illustrate with a really offensive line. "D&D isn't for you _______." Put whatever qualifier you want in the blank. Also, how are all the other RPG's "for me?" That's making some pretty big assumptions about myself and every other game in existence. And I assure you, ever other author did not sit down and go, "Let's make games for straight white guys!", which I know is what you meant.
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Post by natebob on Apr 30, 2018 12:09:24 GMT -8
It's possible that MH2 is not a game for you. Which is OK because all the other RPGs out there are for you. We live in a Golden Age of role playing with a plethora of games for every niche and special interest out there. You can also play MH1 too. Man, this right here is exactly why monsterhearts was created. By the way, there is a world of difference between a game not being "for you" and being something you aren't into. I'll illustrate with a really offensive line. "D&D isn't for you _______." Put whatever qualifier you want in the blank. Also, how are all the other RPG's "for me?" That's making some pretty big assumptions about myself and every other game in existence. And I assure you, ever other author did not sit down and go, "Let's make games for straight white guys!", which I know is what you meant. I actually don't know anything about you personally; so I made no assumptions except that you didn't like MH2. I was just pointing out that there are tons of role playing games out there and surely some of them you will be in to, or else you would not be on HJ forums stirring up shit about a tiny little indie game that like a thousand people care and know about world wide. So all I meant was, there are lots of games out there and it's awful that you found one don't like; so don't play it. Play something else. Even MH1 was a good fit for you by your report. Not everything is supposed to be just to your liking.
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