hoobuk
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 80
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, D&D 5E, Savage Worlds, WoD20, Cortex+
Currently Playing: Vampire Dark Ages 20th Anniversary, D&D 5E, Pathfinder
Currently Running: Monster of the Week
Favorite Species of Monkey: Capucin
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Episode 1
May 21, 2018 22:00:53 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by hoobuk on May 21, 2018 22:00:53 GMT -8
Would never tell anyone to STFU about all this. I totally get where joecrak is coming from, and yes even though I'm guilty of it a lot, I don't like calling a "miss" a "failure" in the sense that it's not a matter of "I do the thing" or "I don't do the thing." PbtA rolls are about "what happens when I try to do the thing?" But what @hyvemind is talking about is a separate issue, and does address an issue that I think is important in PbtA, and that's GM fiat. I personally think lots of people go overboard with poo-pooing GM's right to control situations in story games. But I think that's a trauma reaction to bad GMs in more traditional games. Characters who always get their way don't have good stories. In an ideal game, GMs and PCs are collaborators. As a PC, I love when a GM narrates something I didn't conceive or expect. It's exciting! If I don't want anyone messing with my character's story, I'll write it instead of playing a collaborative game of it. And really, if everyone loves the story, who cares where the narration come from! My friend Cameron McNary wrote a play (also an independent film now) called Of Dice and Men. There's a line in it that defines RPGs as "rules for playing pretend." That's exactly what this is. We're playing pretend together when we play an RPG, but the goal is always to tell a story that is fun for everyone involved. If another PC player has an awesome idea for a narration, then jump in there, you beautiful brilliant storyteller! Gimme that sweet sweet narration! (And I want to acknowledge that @hyvemind has the same conclusion, which is why they offered the STFU option. Clearly everyone had fun, so all is good in the end.) This is one of the reasons I've been trying to stop saying "GM & Players" and instead say "GM & PCs." The GM is a player as well and has every right to contribute to an exciting moment as the PCs do. (And yes, this is also exactly the point joecrak is getting at... namely, language matters.) The limiting of story game rules to strict parameters is the opposite of the whole reason the story game movement happened. D&D had long established the caveat of "if a rule ruins your fun, then screw that rule." It wasn't the rules that screwed up traditional RPGs, it was the players themselves believing rules trumped story or fun. So I do like to caution people about getting too caught up in rules with story games, lest they become that which they hate, to paraphrase the old adage. When you gaze into the abyss, sometimes the abyss gazes back at you. PS: OMFG do I love discussing things like this, so I love that y'all brought this up.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on May 22, 2018 13:16:32 GMT -8
Totally see where HyveMynd is coming when she says the GM fiat thing possibly being a damper for some players in regards to the failures, especially if it's regarding how the character reacts. As an example in Monster Hearts, the danger could be having your character get turned on, and then having the GM tell you how you react. This can lead to less investment and feeling like you are losing ownership of the character. (The whole "but that's not what I'd do", and I'm not talking about from the perspective of "I don't want to lose", but maybe "that's not how I actually see the character acting".) That said, I'm also totally on board with how StrangeLikeThat and hoobuk are saying it's also a matter of trust at the table, or homosuperior saying it helps him by being able to react to a thing, and spawns innovation. My favorite tables have been a combination of these, where the failure occurs, and the GM chimes in with a "Oh, I have an idea here. How about..." <blah blah blah> "...does that sound cool, player one?" That gives me as the player the ability to agree or dissent... "oh shit ya, dope idea. let's do it...", but also "yah, I don't think she'd do that. She'd probably be more like ...", or even the sometimes the very excited "oh, hold up. I have a different idea..." (And it could be that in your table you know the players will speak up if they have other ideas, so you don't have to do the "does that sound cool?" part, because maybe it's implied.) And also... HyveMynd. This thread. Oh my god, how times have changed. I've got a grin from ear to ear.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on May 22, 2018 18:14:29 GMT -8
One of the things I feel like we are going for in this particular game is the feeling of a teen drama tv show. We have gone even further past the bounds of regular reality than normal monsterhearts. Everyone is SUPER hot and look like they are in their mid 20's instead of as teenagers. When I picture scenes happening in my head, they are through the lens of a camera shot, cutting to faces close to each other, cutting from camera one to camera two during conversations, or having a fixed point of view as the scenes roll out. So with that in mind, I really don't mind a bit of direction as to where a scene is going within the context of a miss. I don't mind lucky (or unlucky) coincidences, and I also trust Adam and Mac to stop and listen if I want to do something different. That is exactly the same way I play tappy . The characters are all super hot, and instead of being actual teenagers, they are "TV teenagers". So yeah. Mid 20's pretending to be 17 and 18. Because I don't want to picture actual 15 to 18 year olds in the situations that pop up in-game. I also frame things like a TV show, even when I'm not MCing, in regards to where the imaginary camera is pointing. My feeling is that as Monsterhearts is meant to emulate paranormal romance media (young adult or otherwise), a big part of that is showing things to the audience to help set the mood, that the characters might not be aware of. I absolutely get your point here. However, PBTA games are sort of their own beast with the "fail" mechanic, which is a great opportunity for complications. It's not like other systems where a failed roll just means you don't do the thing. So it's a fine line between leading what unintended consequences happen versus what the players may concoct. As a GM I am always open for my players to contradict what I see in my mind, but sometimes having a path laid out can be good too. And I know, as a player, I sometimes relish the challenge of what a GM may throw at me in those instances. I guess it's more like making an aggressive suggestion that they can accept or reject. If that makes sense. Oh absolutely. PBTA games not being a "nothing happens on a miss" is a huge part of why I love them so much. Something always happens regardless of what the dice come up as, and they just determine if things go your way, things mostly go your way, or if the MC complicates your PC's life. I too relish the challenge of dealing with the challenges the MC throws at my characters, so yes. That absolutely makes sense. I just balked a bit at what felt like a player having their character's actions dictated to them. As you all brought up at the beginning of the episode (or possible in session zero) Monsterhearts often dictates how your character feels about something, but as a player you are always in control about what your character does. As a player, I love having something to react to. Maybe it’s the actor in me, but having results (both positive and negstive) generate given circumstances for my character allows me to dig into who my character is and find their honest response. In the above example, it could have easily gone into Oliver laying into Ivy for throwing off his groove; however, because of the given circumstances from the condition given to her and my backstory with Ivy, I had to change tactics and cemented for me as a player how Oliver deals with Ivy. Absolutely. (I say that a lot, huh?) Not giving players things for their characters to react to is a sure way to kill a PbtA game. My very first time running Apocalypse World was an unmitigated disaster because I did exactly that. I didn't give the characters anything to react to, so the players didn't make moves, so I as MC didn't have anything to progress the fiction with, and the game entered this negative feedback loop and died a horrible, fiery death. I learned my lesson though. Now I always make sure players and characters have things to react to, whether that happens as a result of a missed roll, because the players are looking at me to see what happens, or because they gave me a golden opportunity. I think that's why I cocked an eyebrow so hard at what seemed like the MC dictating character actions. Would never tell anyone to STFU about all this. I totally get where joecrak is coming from, and yes even though I'm guilty of it a lot, I don't like calling a "miss" a "failure" in the sense that it's not a matter of "I do the thing" or "I don't do the thing." PbtA rolls are about "what happens when I try to do the thing?" But what HyveMynd is talking about is a separate issue, and does address an issue that I think is important in PbtA, and that's GM fiat. I personally think lots of people go overboard with poo-pooing GM's right to control situations in story games. But I think that's a trauma reaction to bad GMs in more traditional games. Characters who always get their way don't have good stories. In an ideal game, GMs and PCs are collaborators. As a PC, I love when a GM narrates something I didn't conceive or expect. It's exciting! If I don't want anyone messing with my character's story, I'll write it instead of playing a collaborative game of it. And really, if everyone loves the story, who cares where the narration come from! My friend Cameron McNary wrote a play (also an independent film now) called Of Dice and Men. There's a line in it that defines RPGs as "rules for playing pretend." That's exactly what this is. We're playing pretend together when we play an RPG, but the goal is always to tell a story that is fun for everyone involved. If another PC player has an awesome idea for a narration, then jump in there, you beautiful brilliant storyteller! Gimme that sweet sweet narration! (And I want to acknowledge that HyveMynd has the same conclusion, which is why they offered the STFU option. Clearly everyone had fun, so all is good in the end.) This is one of the reasons I've been trying to stop saying "GM & Players" and instead say "GM & PCs." The GM is a player as well and has every right to contribute to an exciting moment as the PCs do. (And yes, this is also exactly the point joecrak is getting at... namely, language matters.) The limiting of story game rules to strict parameters is the opposite of the whole reason the story game movement happened. D&D had long established the caveat of "if a rule ruins your fun, then screw that rule." It wasn't the rules that screwed up traditional RPGs, it was the players themselves believing rules trumped story or fun. So I do like to caution people about getting too caught up in rules with story games, lest they become that which they hate, to paraphrase the old adage. When you gaze into the abyss, sometimes the abyss gazes back at you. PS: OMFG do I love discussing things like this, so I love that y'all brought this up. I agree with everything you said hoobuk . If players don't want other players messing with their character's story, they should go write a book. You're playing a collaborative game and everyone gets to contribute to the narrative. My feeling is that the MC, especially in Monsterhearts, is there to intentionally throw wrenches into the PC plans. Throw up those roadblocks. Introduce those NPC foils and rivals. Create drama that the PCs have to deal with. Characters getting everything they want is boring as hell, and makes for an uninteresting game. I was just surprised that in this case the MC used a player character to do that. I think this scene is really sticking out to me because something very similar happened in our current Monsterhearts game. I'll be extra brief here, since this is about the Carefree High AP. My Wyrm took her Ghoul girlfriend to the mall for a makeover, and they start going at it during a bra fitting at Victoria's Secret. I miss my Turn Someone On roll, and suddenly shop staff rips open the changing room curtain to call us out. The Ghoul's player and I had something to react to, but they were all external. Totally see where HyveMynd is coming when she says the GM fiat thing possibly being a damper for some players in regards to the failures, especially if it's regarding how the character reacts. As an example in Monster Hearts, the danger could be having your character get turned on, and then having the GM tell you how you react. This can lead to less investment and feeling like you are losing ownership of the character. (The whole "but that's not what I'd do", and I'm not talking about from the perspective of "I don't want to lose", but maybe "that's not how I actually see the character acting".) That said, I'm also totally on board with how StrangeLikeThat and hoobuk are saying it's also a matter of trust at the table, or homosuperior saying it helps him by being able to react to a thing, and spawns innovation. My favorite tables have been a combination of these, where the failure occurs, and the GM chimes in with a "Oh, I have an idea here. How about..." <blah blah blah> "...does that sound cool, player one?" That gives me as the player the ability to agree or dissent... "oh shit ya, dope idea. let's do it...", but also "yah, I don't think she'd do that. She'd probably be more like ...", or even the sometimes the very excited "oh, hold up. I have a different idea..." (And it could be that in your table you know the players will speak up if they have other ideas, so you don't have to do the "does that sound cool?" part, because maybe it's implied.) Collaborative games where everyone pitches ideas regardless of who's character is in the spotlight are my favorite types of games too. We're all telling these stories together, and we're all acting as the audience. So we should all be able to throw out suggestions of what we want to see "on screen". I do trust that hoobuk , gina , homosuperior , tappy , and StrangeLikeThat would speak up if the MC narrated their character doing something they didn't like. Imagining there's an unspoken "If that's OK" after the suggestion is a good way to look at it. And also... HyveMynd . This thread. Oh my god, how times have changed. I've got a grin from ear to ear. Right? Right! Right!
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on May 22, 2018 18:37:55 GMT -8
LOL. And I just got to the part where poor Ivy starts ugly crying and runs away from Oliver and Max. gina's "I must be on my period." explanation knocked me out of my chair. 💖
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tappy
Journeyman Douchebag
Host
Posts: 192
Preferred Game Systems: Apoc World, Monsterhearts, L5r, Wod
Favorite Species of Monkey: Space Monkey
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Post by tappy on May 23, 2018 12:07:32 GMT -8
And also... HyveMynd. This thread. Oh my god, how times have changed. I've got a grin from ear to ear. Ok, now you have to let us in on the joke.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on May 23, 2018 12:27:33 GMT -8
And also... HyveMynd. This thread. Oh my god, how times have changed. I've got a grin from ear to ear. Ok, now you have to let us in on the joke. I think it started during the depths of the tappy drought of '05 and '06. PbtA was slipping its tantalizing tendrils around the hearts of many a hippie gamer, possessing them with a fervent need to proselytize. Many a trad gamer was turned off, being weary of wolves in gamer clothing, and the great Stu Venable himself was bothered by the constant barrage of story gamer claiming the coming of RPG enlightenment. A few hosts were able to fight off blind devotion, but fought for the recognition of the PbtA goodness, and slowly the love spread. And now we sit and rejoice in the glow of a thread almost wholly subsumed by hosts exclaiming the glory. All praise the apocalypse.
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homosuperior
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 40
Preferred Game Systems: Dungeons & Dragons 5E, Savage Worlds, Vampire: The Requiem, Monsterhearts 2
Currently Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 5E, Savage Worlds, Phoenix: Dawn Command, Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: Bedlam Hall
Favorite Species of Monkey: Skill Monkey
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Episode 1
May 23, 2018 13:45:09 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by homosuperior on May 23, 2018 13:45:09 GMT -8
Ok, now you have to let us in on the joke. I think it started during the depths of the tappy drought of '05 and '06. PbtA was slipping its tantalizing tendrils around the hearts of many a hippie gamer, possessing them with a fervent need to proselytize. Many a trad gamer was turned off, being weary of wolves in gamer clothing, and the great Stu Venable himself was bothered by the constant barrage of story gamer claiming the coming of RPG enlightenment. A few hosts were able to fight off blind devotion, but fought for the recognition of the PbtA goodness, and slowly the love spread. And now we sit and rejoice in the glow of a thread almost wholly subsumed by hosts exclaiming the glory. All praise the apocalypse. I come from a D20 household. All I ever played was D&D, which was great (except for the dark times of 4e and the dallying with Pathfinder/WoD until 5e saved us all), but I have to admit the more PbtA games (story games in general really) I play, the more I realize I have been looking for these types of games my entire gaming life! I don’t care how much damage I can do in a round with this insane broken combination of feats/weapons/multi-class abilities. I care about the thing I’m attacking’s motivations! Stop stabbing my RP partners!
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on May 23, 2018 17:38:40 GMT -8
All praise the apocalypse. All praise the apocalypse. I come from a D20 household. All I ever played was D&D, which was great (except for the dark times of 4e and the dallying with Pathfinder/WoD until 5e saved us all), but I have to admit the more PbtA games (story games in general really) I play, the more I realize I have been looking for these types of games my entire gaming life! I don’t care how much damage I can do in a round with this insane broken combination of feats/weapons/multi-class abilities. I care about the thing I’m attacking’s motivations! Stop stabbing my RP partners!
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Post by kurtpotts on May 24, 2018 13:49:48 GMT -8
OMG that GIF.
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Post by gina on Jun 4, 2018 14:07:41 GMT -8
All praise the apocalypse. All praise the apocalypse. I come from a D20 household. All I ever played was D&D, which was great (except for the dark times of 4e and the dallying with Pathfinder/WoD until 5e saved us all), but I have to admit the more PbtA games (story games in general really) I play, the more I realize I have been looking for these types of games my entire gaming life! I don’t care how much damage I can do in a round with this insane broken combination of feats/weapons/multi-class abilities. I care about the thing I’m attacking’s motivations! Stop stabbing my RP partners! All praise the Apocalypse. This has to be my new tag line. That okay with you guys, tomes and HyveMynd? Also, EricaOdd 's pony Gina must be my new avatar.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Jun 4, 2018 17:07:42 GMT -8
This has to be my new tag line. That okay with you guys, tomes and HyveMynd? If she don't got a problem with it, I don't. HyveMynd, my dear?
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Post by EricaOdd on Jun 5, 2018 1:50:31 GMT -8
All praise the apocalypse. All praise the Apocalypse. This has to be my new tag line. That okay with you guys, tomes and HyveMynd ? Also, EricaOdd 's pony Gina must be my new avatar. I'm flattered, thank you!
If you want, I can send you a high-res version without the text on it so you can trim it down to avatar size.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Episode 1
Jun 5, 2018 2:26:15 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by HyveMynd on Jun 5, 2018 2:26:15 GMT -8
Not at all. Go for it, gina. All praise the Apocalypse. 💖
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Episode 1
Jun 8, 2018 5:15:08 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by joecrak on Jun 8, 2018 5:15:08 GMT -8
My comment caused lots of discussion! Yay!
Stop calling 6- a fail! You can succeed on a 6-, but something else in the fiction should also happen!
Y'all know this though.
Also, and this is an opinion thing, but if any player or the MC sees another player triggering a move, like when the one character ran away crying. Y'all should call out that they are triggering a move.
Moves are usually designed to have an avalanche effect where the effects of one lead to triggering another.
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