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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 26, 2012 13:28:28 GMT -8
Hi I need your advice. I don't want to tell someone "no" but I need to. So I already know what to do. I need your advice telling me how you would have me do it, please? The situation is that I have 5 new in takes for my "find a friend through RPGs" club. I target lonely foreigners who are adverse to the bar scene for re-building their social networks. I stress player skills over character limitations and I am very "yes and..." in practice. I have a system that uses AD&D 1e liberally mixed with 3.5 improvements (ascending AC, Saves, BaB, no weapon speed factors, 1-minute rounds without segments, etc.) . I do not fret if everything works or not because I have a system of wild hair rulings. It is not a system that works with everyone, and I only mention AD&D 1e because the genre is fantasy and the book explicitly says, over and over, the system = GM. Allot of trust is required - both from the GM not being hosed by players taking advantage (you know the type that rationalises because of one ruling a few weeks ago they can backstab using a ballista) and visa versa, players not being frustrated by an adversarial or megalomaniac GM. Truth is I am not a rules memorizer, and I have a difficult time remembering things I read. And I won't pick up a book during a game unless it is absolutely necessary (like travel calculations or something like that). This usually breaks my game as I search and remove myself from the players. So. I had a new player (a gamer, not my target of new-to-the-hobby player) recently drop by my place and we did character generation. We rolled 3D6 dice. He rolled his HP while I was out of the room and got the max (in my game I just give the max but you understand what I am saying). He spoke rapid fire in leaps and bounds; ignored me when I was speaking; and checked messages on his phone. He took an online alignment test (something standardized because I deal with cross-culture issues here) and tested thoroughly Chaotic Evil. My group is about strangers making friends.... I had to explain some important things to him about my (GM owned) system but he was visually flummoxed expecting an answer from a book. My girlfriend met him and immediately disliked him. He is selfish, she says. She knows Chaotic Evil when she sees it. I think you have the picture in all that, and I have formed my opinion that the group is better served without him. I mean, maybe he is a sweet guy and this first impression is off, which I highly doubt is possible. Either way, I do not want to jeopardize the game. I smiled, shook his hand, wished him well and said the usual autopilot stuff as I saw him out my door. But I had a serious think to myself afterward, as any good GM should about players after the session. And the more I thought, the less I liked having said: I look forward to playing with you. Because I don't “look forward.” In fact, I am anxious. The guy is a liability. In contrast, I had an AD&D 1e grognard call me to join the group and his question about my system was: how do I feel about animals? (Apparently he believes they are great for setting off traps for low-level PCs.) Brilliant! Player skill. He groks. And for the table of new-to-the-hobby people looking to make new friends from within a country full of strangers, that's the player I want. So I must brush off the guy I saw today and cut my loss. But I want to lie about it. Or, at least, use a bit more tact and diplomacy than an Asperger's sufferer in saying thanks but no thanks you selfish prick. It would be sublime if he were to believe the idea to quit the group were his, too. (Did I tell everyone I worked in PR?) Any ideas, suggestions and/or advice, please?
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Post by Forresst on Aug 26, 2012 13:53:18 GMT -8
Did he give you any indication of a day that absolutely would not fit his schedule? If so, you could mention the group needs to play on that day due to some miscellaneous circumstance. Otherwise, you might steer him toward another group: maybe you have some people who like to play board games or something who could put up with him for a little while?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 14:38:04 GMT -8
If you definitely don't think you can play with this person that I personally I say skip the passive aggressive stuff and tell him flat out that he simple won't fit with your group and that he should look at other options. Trying to make him think it was his idea to leave, or telling him lies to get rid of him is never a good route.
If you feel the need to be dishonest with a complete stranger to deal with a personality conflict how can you deal with someone you actually know?
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 26, 2012 16:34:42 GMT -8
If the player has come to you to broaden his social circle then I'd feel pretty bad about cutting out from that aspect of what you are trying to achieve. Then again I'd feel shite if his play style fucked over the group. I'd be tempted to say "listen I don't think you'll fit in with the AD&D 1e game at the moment because of the group we have (CE and LG Paladins don't mix - lie about that bit)" then counter with something like "We do have an xyz game (sophisticated board game like risk, diplomacy, battle star, etc) on x night": arrange a few such game nights and hopefully a) he'll met some people and fulfil your original mission objective and/or b) a more structured game environment might just counter/curb his douchiness to within manageable margins and hopefully he'll get bored and drift off the radar.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 26, 2012 22:19:51 GMT -8
Thanks everyone. I am still listening. Please keep the advice coming. I appreciate it.
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 27, 2012 6:44:17 GMT -8
My advice, take the hard road and be candid with him.
Very nice to have met you and all, but I just don't think you're a fit for this group or this game (take your pick). Perhaps we can look at another game when one starts up.
Be polite, be tactful but don't lie.
Just my 2 krupplenicks worth, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 27, 2012 11:22:49 GMT -8
Yeah, I want to second JiB's post. Just be honest.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 27, 2012 12:46:23 GMT -8
Here's the thing, if you tell him the truth, he's likely to react in a negative way. He doesn't sound like a reasonable person, and having a reasonable, truthful conversation may not even be possible.
From what you've described, this guy is a narcissist, a rules lawyer and maybe even a dice cheat.
With this sort of situation, I'd ask myself, "what's the easiest, fastest and most grief-free way I can get this guy out of my life?"
If that's telling the truth, great. If it's making up a story so he just leaves and I don't have to hear any shit from him, that's great too.
If this is someone you're going to see again for some reason (connected at work, with your social circle, etc), then I would take the hit and tell him straight up.
But I definitely wouldn't expect to get a reasonable response from someone who (at least from your description) doesn't seem very reasonable.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 27, 2012 17:07:15 GMT -8
Here's the thing, if you tell him the truth, he's likely to react in a negative way. He doesn't sound like a reasonable person, and having a reasonable, truthful conversation may not even be possible. From what you've described, this guy is a narcissist, a rules lawyer and maybe even a dice cheat. With this sort of situation, I'd ask myself, "what's the easiest, fastest and most grief-free way I can get this guy out of my life?" If that's telling the truth, great. If it's making up a story so he just leaves and I don't have to hear any shit from him, that's great too. If this is someone you're going to see again for some reason (connected at work, with your social circle, etc), then I would take the hit and tell him straight up. But I definitely wouldn't expect to get a reasonable response from someone who (at least from your description) doesn't seem very reasonable. Normally I'd agree with everything everyone has said except we're all forgetting the major caveat of CreativeCowboys problem . . . Which makes his situation unique (and possibly the reason for asking for advice). CC uses RPG's as a gateway for lonely expats in Poland to socially network with other English speaking expats. I don't want to make assumptions but a) that's an incredibly compassionate venture and speaks volumes of CC and his nature and b) if you accept that someone has come to you in those circumstances he might be an arsehole at the moment purely in response to his current social isolation. A different country, a different life . . . If you don't know anyone (except maybe your contractors for employment) it can get pretty lonely pretty quickly . . . Factor in certain social differences and misunderstandings and I think you see what I'm saying. I think what CC would like is to not RPG with this fellow but still give him the opportunity to expand his social circle within Poland . . . And preferably not within CC's immediate social group.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 27, 2012 23:57:49 GMT -8
It is complicated. It's everything Aaron wrote and Stu perceives, but a little more.
I directly recruited this guy. I sent him a direct message, as I am ought to do seeking people who have never played RPGs or who have never considered playing RPGs. I sold him on playing with us because my form letter seeking players is my elevator pitch/sales letter. I welcomed him and now I must pull the rug out from under him.
I could let him into the group and try to change him... but that will end in tears as Stu correctly articulates my observation of this guy. Moreover, he put his dirty shoes on a chair cushion in a country where it is customary to take off your shoes when entering a home, and my girlfriend did not like that. I see him potentially treating the group of noobs in the same cavalier manner as well, eventually leaving the group when something "better" comes along - which may or may not include an explosive outburst if the character of the noobs proves strong. And I lived through that Atomic reaction once and players in my games do not like irredeemable social misfits.
I wish I could slough him off to the munchkin group (because he fits them, and it would entertain me) but just because someone suffers Asperger's does not mean he gets a welcome by a group of Asperger’s. In fact they may judge him harder and quicker than I do because he threatens them as individuals, where I am more concerned about my group.
I am still reading your comments and suggestions. This situation is well out of my comfort zone because I made the initial mistake and now I have to own it. I would like to do that gently.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 28, 2012 0:18:29 GMT -8
That's why I would shift the emphasis away from him playing in a purely RPG and get him involved with the more appropriate group thru a game with more structure and 'game play'. This might help the aspergers accept the arseburgered by initially curbing their mutual douchiness . . . I'd suggest, if you have it, something like the old TSR BoardGame 'Knights of Camelot' (I think that's what is was called) and I'm sure there are contemporary equivalents. Of course how to get your munchkins on board playing this unscheduled game . . . ?
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 28, 2012 6:46:27 GMT -8
I stand on my advice with an addendum since you actually approached him.
Be stand up and straight forward with him but then you might want to help him find a group of players that he fits with.
What I would not try to do is change him. Much as I'd like to do that with players, and I have tried over the years, it's a very low percentage endeavor to try to change someone into something they are not.
A word of advice, because I've run into a similar situation, in the future you might want to keep specifics about particular games close to your vest until you get to know someone because of this exact circumstance. You can then meet someone and if you think they're not a fit it becomes a matter of, "Hey great to have met you, I'm working to get some new games going I'll let you know as soon as I have specifics on a game for you." Nothing of which is a lie.
Cheers,
JiB
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 28, 2012 7:32:29 GMT -8
I stand on my advice with an addendum since you actually approached him. Be stand up and straight forward with him but then you might want to help him find a group of players that he fits with. What I would not try to do is change him. Much as I'd like to do that with players, and I have tried over the years, it's a very low percentage endeavor to try to change someone into something they are not. A word of advice, because I've run into a similar situation, in the future you might want to keep specifics about particular games close to your vest until you get to know someone because of this exact circumstance. You can then meet someone and if you think they're not a fit it becomes a matter of, "Hey great to have met you, I'm working to get some new games going I'll let you know as soon as I have specifics on a game for you." Nothing of which is a lie. Cheers, JiB Hi JiB, This saga is unfolding on the Facebook group now, with Aneta the intermediary. I have tried to pair him with a personality of the same type but I feel it is not working. You can watch it in real time there. When I meet people for the first time, I invite them to my home and chat with them about RPGs. They get comfortable and I have them roll dice, do an alignment questionnaire and hand wave the starting gold in favour of a visual description and itemized list of equipment. New-to-the-hobby players (those guys I love) do not see a character record sheet. We talk about literary genre in a very casual way. I present them a fully detailed character record for the Blue Book based on that first interview and the statistics they generated. I allow them to fiddle with the bits they want (languages, familiars and such things) for the first level. But when I get a gamer, their Asperger's kicks in and the comfortable small talk switches to binary really fast. For normal people, this lock-down may be due to nervousness. For these gamers, it is The Way. So it is too late by the time I make out the difference between the chair rocker and the nervous stranger because I approach the first meeting differently than typical game recruitment. The game is the facilitator rather than the end, which does not computer in the 0s & 1's mind of typical social misfits. So this guy has already filled in his own character record because, for him, that was the point of the meeting. [edit] Just got an eMail that suggests the guy will have a place to land. A very condescending eMail I may add. Perfect fit! ;D
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 28, 2012 12:58:23 GMT -8
When I'm meeting a new player for the first time, unless they are being brought in by someone I know, I meet with them in a neutral place to have those sorts of conversations, makes them feel more comfortable, makes me feel more comfortable. Better all the way around.
My topics of conversation for that meeting tend to be:
1. Philosophy of gaming 2. Favorite kind of game 3. Favorite or preferred genres 4. Tell me about your favorite character ever
I like open ended questions because it gets them talking openly about what they really think.
Cheers,
JiB
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 30, 2012 22:52:02 GMT -8
JiB, A winnowing question was just posted on the group in Poland. In short: A guy asks for help (play testers) for the creation of the board game he's working on. Group answers: yeah! boardgames. Lets play other games. (And they're all computer guys) Then these guys will complain that a game is unfair because they do not listen. Moreover they're selfish. I am updating this here but it equally fits, IMHO, inflatus topic. I sincerely worry for the future of RPGs as they become populated by such players. [edit] pooplutatedThese guys are working on the Cyberpunk "computer RPG" to use the widely accepted perjorative spin term for 0s & 1s games.
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