|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 25, 2013 20:55:19 GMT -8
TRUE CONFESSION: 5e IS 3.9 SOURCE: www.examiner.com/article/wizards-of-the-coast-charges-for-backwards-compatible-d-d-encounters "Additionally, character creation can be in v3.5 Edition, 4th Edition, or D&D Next." is code for Pathfinder 3.9. I have no other way to read this article or the flak coming from D&D press gang. Not to see it now is clearly a choice to be willfully blind. D&D 5e (the title the brand is assiduously avoiding) is going after Pathfinder market share - answering the question why the reprint modules are made as more cheap collectibles than as playable games (with detachable maps). And puts the DnDclassics.com PDFs in the light of a stop gap cash grab someone in marketing awoke to realise.
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Jun 30, 2013 6:16:25 GMT -8
I'm unsure that this is really news. To say that a company who recently lost a large chunk of its market share to a competitor will be attempting to gain it back with a new product is expected. Since divorcing themselves so fully from past systems was a major complaint among the customers they lost, it only makes sense that they're trying to mitigate that complaint going forward.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 7:36:48 GMT -8
Wasn't that reason for the sudden turn around in the first place. ie: the unprecedented short life span of 4e coupled with Pathfinders market share growth over the same period. If it isn't I'd question the marketing strategy of WoTC executives - they sold the golden goose Piazo and it's been catchup ever since
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 30, 2013 10:52:52 GMT -8
I detest liars and more so liars who are permitted to be successful with the weakest lie. 5e is not about bringing together all editions (as if that objective were ever possible). I underderstand the marketing. I am not questioning the soundness of marketing here. I appreciate the sleight-of-hand disinformation thrown at Paizo. I am questioning the integrity of WotC truth for the rest of us. I am calling bullshit. I recall jfever being gang banged because he dared to notice the same thing in the The Wixard's AP is AWFUL Thread.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 11:18:04 GMT -8
The differences between 1e and 2e : minimal. The difference between 2e and 2e Players Options : notable. The difference between 2e Players Options (fully realised with new combat system including AoO) and 3e : minimal with many aspects hardening back to 1e (barbarian, assassins, monks). 3e to 4e : significant difference in both mechanics and fluff and feel. Any reconciliation of editions will necessitate sacrificing some holy cows of each each edition. Which version sells best at present? Pathfinder!!!! - I think the biggest losers will be the committed 4e gamers because they'll feel right outside the loop in terms of gameplay, fluff and flavour. Aaron
|
|
|
Post by greatwyrm on Jun 30, 2013 11:43:02 GMT -8
I think the biggest losers will be the committed 4e gamers because they'll feel right outside the loop in terms of gameplay, fluff and flavour. Ya, Next just doesn't feel a lot like 4e at all. At least from a player's side. Some of the always-available spell options are nice and the layout/mechanics for monsters. But 4e is the farthest from the roots they're trying to go back to. To me it looks more like what I wanted 3e to be -- 2e with cleaner mechanics.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 12:29:08 GMT -8
To me it looks more like what I wanted 3e to be -- 2e with cleaner mechanics. In its original inception I think it was exactly that but the D20 system itself left itself open to exploitation (bit like an iPhone jailbreak) and that exploitation took on a life of its own it expanded to become the standard thru the sheer weight of OGL products. Aaron
|
|
|
Post by Arcona on Jun 30, 2013 12:53:35 GMT -8
Pathfinder sells better now that there is no 3.5
Pathfinder did not sell better than 3.5 when 3.5 was out.
I dont see the problem with creating content that allows players to use whatever version of the game they are playing, on the contrary I think its great.
Do you expect to hit competition, gain new market and satisfy old markets when you develop a product? Off course you do! And once more, what is the problem with that?
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Jun 30, 2013 12:57:06 GMT -8
Pathfinder sells better now that there is no 3.5 Pathfinder did not sell better than 3.5 when 3.5 was out. I dont see the problem with creating content that allows players to use whatever version of the game they are playing, on the contrary I think its great. Do you expect to hit competition, gain new market and satisfy old markets when you develop a product? Off course you do! And once more, that is the problem with that? Not totally relevant to the topic, but did it even exist outside of the setting/campaign products?
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 13:00:26 GMT -8
Exactly. If Next was just a revised 1e then why bother??? All 1e ever needed was it's errata and a better layout: oops that's 2e isn't it? or OSRIC? Aaron PS: TSR DID release errata - 'Sage Advice' column in Dragon Mag.
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Jun 30, 2013 16:20:56 GMT -8
EDIT: Apologies for the wall of text, but allow me to take this opportunity to both rubbish Paizo/WOTC and prosetylize MY game of choice. As one reviewer wryly noted, the only problem with D&D next is that DCC RPG has been released already I am fairly ignorant regarding the Pathfinder product line, and a quick look on their website indicates there are many, many splat-books. This is a pet hate of mine (damn you mongoose traveller!!!!). From the outside it looks nigh-inpenetrable. I can't tell which ones I would need or would even care about if I were to run or play. I like the approach Goodman Games has taken to DCC RPG - One book. It is a tome (the size of HERO) but there's only one, and the damn thing is about 40% artwork. Third party publishers can write supplements if they like (with GG approval), but none of them are considered 'canon' in the way Pathfinder/D&D books are. The business is sustained by the DCC line of (amazing) modules - rather than more and more rules. They have explicitly stated that they will not produce a proliferation of rules supplements, and the game will have the same low barrier to entry in five years as it has now, 1 rule book. They said they might release 'annuals' that compile all the neat things from the modules etc. for the year, however 2+ years after release and still nothing. To be honest, I hope they don't - and only 3 years to go to keep their promise. I think this is the biggest mistake both Paizo and WOTC have made - trying to keep a game alive through endless rules supplements. I think most would agree that this is not sustainable and the inevitable result is edition 're-sets' like this. Creating new stuff for publication is hard work, and requires significant investment of time and money. However, you are marketing this stuff at an increasingly diluted pool of people (those who bought the last supplement). It will be a long time before new players 'catch up' to your current stuff. This makes it very difficult to get a proper return on your investment within a reasonable timeframe. You are sinking all the investment in the content for a slow trickle of revenue. It also segments your player base - players who want to play in a game with 'all the rules' wont want to play in games that just use 'core' rules. The beauty of DCC is that all you need is the core book and you are golden. To be honest, if you are a player, you barely even need that. While this is said about many systems, I find it is almost never true in practice.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Jun 30, 2013 17:05:31 GMT -8
The Pathfinder Core Book is a bullet stopper. 575 pages for a 60.00 dollar book. Having said that it is all we have used for over two years of gaming. And we certainly have really only scratched the surface my groups characters being 6th level. It is a beautiful book, very well organized, great art, those rules have been put through the ringer of doom to see how they work. What makes PF the current number one selling RPG is that they are some bad ass marketers who put out a shite ton of really eye catching, well written products. Having gone from the entire DnD saga: D&D, AD&D, back to D&D, onto 2e, onto 3e, back to D&D, onto 3.5, back to D&D, onto 4e, ran back to D&D, now onto Pathfinder. I find myself certainly missing some of the more amorphous rules aspects of good ol' D&D (because we house ruled the shit outta it, like we do with any game we spend more than a few sessions exploring). DCC besides being utter D&D nostalgia porn: ...does appear to do a nice job of providing a down and dirty game that you can keep going back to...AAAAAAND they are putting out some really eye catching, well written products. I will play them both...and then go back and play some D&D; where an elf is a fuckin elf! (And then play some warhammer Fantasy, some dark heresy, paranoia....*wanders off waving hands and shouting*
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 17:08:00 GMT -8
I'll aided to your prosetylizing and mention Castles & Crusades. It neat and sweet old school flavour meets new school simple task resolution. Think 3e without skills and feats to clag up the works. The Castle Keepers guide is invaluable as gives loads of advice on how to tweak the game to get a desired flavour - from changing vancian fire and forget to mana power level magic to introducing feats and skills if so desired. It's a favourite of 2 GM's 1 Mic podcast and should get more love than it receives. Ah fuck it - I formally request a Castles & Crusades sub forum. I know I'm not the only one here who holds it in positive regard. In fact it has been noted that a LOT of Next is uncomfortably similar to C&C - such that Troll Lords has openly discussed the possible impact Next may have in their small market share. (WoTC being too big to compete face to face with and too able to out produce Troll Lords in terms of supplementary materials) Aaron
|
|
|
Post by greatwyrm on Jun 30, 2013 17:34:03 GMT -8
I think this is the biggest mistake both Paizo and WOTC have made - trying to keep a game alive through endless rules supplements. I think most would agree that this is not sustainable and the inevitable result is edition 're-sets' like this. I'm with you on this, I just don't know where else they could go with it. They've said for years that making adventures and the magazines doesn't make enough money, if any at all. I'd have to assume if they could make money with a DCC approach, they'd be doing it. So, I like what I see in Next, I'm just not sure I want to foot another $100 plus just to get started. There are tons of options that are far less cash and I own several of them. It sucks in a way. I've always been a "D&D guy". I've run and played all kinds of other stuff, but that was always the default. But I'm looking at Savage Worlds, FATE, and the stuff MWP is doing with the Cortex games and I'm really wondering if I'm still gonna be a D&D guy.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 18:08:12 GMT -8
I don't think Next will make the intended 2014 release date. The play test is still pretty rough in spots. They've only just released all the core races. Now once they have a ruleset they've got to write it. Check it. Edit it. Write it again. Layout. Rewrite it again to compensate for the restrictions of the layout. Final edit and proof read. Art work to commission. Then print and ship. Xmas 2014 I bet rather than early 2014. In the meantime Piazo will exploit the marketing opportunity that is D&D's 40th anniversary and become synonymous as the contemporary successor of the original white box. BTW when did elves become taller than humans? and don't mention that supplement - 'the complete book of pointy eared mini gods' Aaron
|
|