maxinstuff
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Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
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Post by maxinstuff on Jun 30, 2013 18:30:28 GMT -8
They've said for years that making adventures and the magazines doesn't make enough money, if any at all. Then WOTC needs to rationalize what they are expecting from the core D&D product line (role playing game and related products). I boldly proclaim with no actual evidence that the reason they don't make money is because they have to continually sink revenue into design efforts. They should be focusing on settings, modules, and other 'fluff'. That is where your valuable intellectual property is anyway - you don't actually own the rules. You need to write the rule set and then leave it (mostly) alone - otherwise your sunk costs continually expand without any corresponding growth in the sales base. It must cost a fortune to keep all those splat-books in print and make sure stores keep them on the shelf.
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Post by Arcona on Jul 1, 2013 2:09:13 GMT -8
I hate modules!
Seriously, I find modules pointless and a waste of money!
What I do like is content. So I am a big fan of the 2nd edition and 3.X edition Forgotten Realm books. Because they explored the FR world! I dont need pre-written adventures with expected results, narrow focused ideas and concepts.
But give me a book that describes a region, its cities, some famous NPCs, news and legends and I am good!
I remember with glee the AD&D Planescape campaign setting and all the additional material. Awesome work, interesting worlds, great writting and good artwork! I never picked up Tales of the World Well or however it was called cause well... I have the entire Planes to make my own stories! Why the heck would I need pre-written ones???
Modules should only be for the amateur DM that hasnt run a game before and wants to do 1-2 of those to show his players the game. And thats it, then you take the training wheels of and play your own game! But because not everyone might have alot of imagination (in which case stop DMing and be a player) having the books I mentioned above might be useful.
This was the success story of good old White Wolf. They made City books for Vampire and other games! As a foreigner getting Mexico By Night, New York By Night and Montreal by Night was all I needed to run Chronicles that lasted years! The structure also helped me develop my own "X City by Night" chronicles and hence I was a happy camper! They did do a few 'adventure books' but those were not as widely loved and were only usually explored by those who cared about the metaplot!
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 1, 2013 2:21:04 GMT -8
I hate modules! Seriously, I find modules pointless and a waste of money! What I do like is content. So I am a big fan of the 2nd edition and 3.X edition Forgotten Realm books. Because they explored the FR world! I done need pre-written adventures with expected results, narrow focused ideas and concepts. But give me a book that describes a region, its cities, some famous NPCs, news and legends and I am good! I remember with glee the AD&D Planescape campaign setting and all the additional material. Awesome work, interesting worlds, great writting and good artwork! I never picked up Tales of the World Well or however it was called cause well... I have the entire Planes to make my own stories! Why the heck would I need pre-written ones??? Modules should only be for the amateur DM that hasnt run a game before and wants to do 1-2 of those to show his players the game. And thats it, then you take the training wheels of and play your own game! But because not everyone might have alot of imagination (in which case stop DMing and be a player) having the books I mentioned above might be useful. This was the success story of good old White Wolf. They made City books for Vampire and other games! As a foreigner getting Mexico By Night, New York By Night and Montreal by Night was all I needed to run Chronicles that lasted years! The structure also helped me develop my own "X City by Night" chronicles and hence I was a happy camper! They did do a few 'adventure books' but those were not as widely loved and were only usually explored by those who cared about the metaplot! See - I am just the complete opposite. I like to come up with my own setting, factions, etc. But I hate coming up with adventures. Modules make my life easier. Swings and round-a-bouts.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 1, 2013 4:55:33 GMT -8
They've said for years that making adventures and the magazines doesn't make enough money, if any at all. Then WOTC needs to rationalize what they are expecting from the core D&D product line (role playing game and related products). I boldly proclaim with no actual evidence that the reason they don't make money is because they have to continually sink revenue into design efforts. They should be focusing on settings, modules, and other 'fluff'. That is where your valuable intellectual property is anyway - you don't actually own the rules. You need to write the rule set and then leave it (mostly) alone - otherwise your sunk costs continually expand without any corresponding growth in the sales base. It must cost a fortune to keep all those splat-books in print and make sure stores keep them on the shelf. I'd go one step further and ask if the WoTC contention is true then how the fuck did all those 3rd Party companies make money during the OGL boom selling exclusively the very thing WoTC claim unprofitable? The boom ended as all booms must but it wasn't helped by WoTC trying to claw back list capital by restricting the OGL and then changing editions with an even more restricted OGL. What really happened IMHO is that WoTC are not very good at writing this sort of material because, as you note, it's sunk it's revenue into R&D with the staff being primarily designers rather than 'writers'. Remember ID software? They knew this weakness in their own model (especially when Romero split from the company), they'd design an engine tack on a game (like quake 3 or doom 3 which were visual eye candy but pretty lousy stories) to showcase it and make money licensing it out to developers. That's why WoTC was never able to claw back that 'lost' revenue from the OGL when they tried to boiler plate it because they're just not very good at it - excepting the odd over taxed individual who will produce sheer gold in terms of fluff. Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 1, 2013 7:00:23 GMT -8
Modules save time for the harried DM who has real life crap to deal with as well. Plus I'll say I like a mix of both - I like GreyHawk because unlike Forgotten Realms I can easily stamp The Flaness as my own . . . Just enough detail to make life easier just enough absence of minutia to not get confined into some else's vision. Want a dark dirty Nordic style Oerth - done, want a squeaky clean fantasy middle ages Oerth - done. Modules I look at as zip files . . . Played out of the box they are limited and linear and sparse - thats cause you've got to decompress the info first and in so doing create those fine details that make it your adventure. My version of the Temple of Elemental Evil is now at least 4 times the size of the material supplied - name those stat blocks give them a history rather than guard #6 or prisoner #2, fuck up the metaplot with an idea of your own. It can be just as rewarding - though this decompression and personalisation was always easier with the older more sand boxy modules. Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 1, 2013 8:13:35 GMT -8
I'd go one step further and ask if the WoTC contention is true then how the fuck did all those 3rd Party companies make money during the OGL boom selling exclusively the very thing WoTC claim unprofitable? That one's easy. They didn't. Those companies that made a mint off of OGL products were all those that put out spat books or alternate rulebooks. Not those that stuck exclusively to modules. Rulebooks and splat books potentially appeal to multiple people around the table. Modules will only go to one.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 1, 2013 10:19:02 GMT -8
A well supported setting does as well . . . I think a lot of modules were just plain badly written and conceived which is why their marketability trailed off. Frankly many of the later 2e modules were just plain stupid - written to appeal to a juvenile market that didn't play D&D anyway. Bit like George Lucas shoving in Jar Jar Binks to grab the cash . . . But amongst the dross were some real gems. Clever plots, well written and enjoyable to play. Saltmarsh and your Sinister Secret where are you now? Or the Assassins Knot? Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 1, 2013 17:17:11 GMT -8
I would lump setting materials under splatbooks. Sorry for the confusion there.
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Post by The Northman on Jul 2, 2013 5:19:24 GMT -8
BTW when did elves become taller than humans? and don't mention that supplement - 'the complete book of pointy eared mini gods' Aaron Tolkien. Always hated that forest sprite/north pole horseshit.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 2, 2013 6:37:38 GMT -8
BTW when did elves become taller than humans? and don't mention that supplement - 'the complete book of pointy eared mini gods' Aaron Tolkien. Always hated that forest sprite/north pole horseshit. Lol. I meant that in 1e elves were shorter than humans!! And since I finally got a 3.5 PHB they were there as well . . . Yet my group of experienced players were surprised by this information? . . . I think it's more to do with WoW MMO than anything else - the fiction of that world is slowly bleeding thru and becoming a genre norm . . . Which I find disturbing . . . Thank you for not mentioning that splat book - I really enjoyed 2e up until that book came out because then it was like "why fucking bother you're all elves and can kick the crap out of anything smaller than a Demi god because you're elves . . . " (I am lead to believe the original author apologised for the book a few years ago) Aaron
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Post by Arcona on Jul 2, 2013 12:42:35 GMT -8
Warhammer fantasy also has taller elves...
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 2, 2013 19:07:31 GMT -8
Most mythologies that feature them have taller elves as well. Short elves were really an invention of Gygax/Arneson
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 3, 2013 2:30:25 GMT -8
I'll concede that point . . . though I believe GG/Arneson did it to promote a humanocentric game. Something, as a human, I tend to agree with . . . or else we run the danger of flirting too close with the realm of furries . . . Aaron
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 3, 2013 3:09:24 GMT -8
FUCKING FURRIES
IMPLEMENT THE SOLUTION!!!!
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Post by The Northman on Jul 3, 2013 4:13:51 GMT -8
Tolkien. Always hated that forest sprite/north pole horseshit. Lol. I meant that in 1e elves were shorter than humans!! And since I finally got a 3.5 PHB they were there as well . . . Yet my group of experienced players were surprised by this information? . . . I think it's more to do with WoW MMO than anything else - the fiction of that world is slowly bleeding thru and becoming a genre norm . . . Which I find disturbing . . . Thank you for not mentioning that splat book - I really enjoyed 2e up until that book came out because then it was like "why fucking bother you're all elves and can kick the crap out of anything smaller than a Demi god because you're elves . . . " (I am lead to believe the original author apologised for the book a few years ago) Aaron I know - I was just hating on the original D&D version of the race.
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