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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 14:31:01 GMT -8
Got a few quick questions for you all. How much is too much? What do you describe? How often? When?
I, recently inspired by the douchebags, singled out all of my players and went through a process of critique. First of my GMing style and then of their playing style. Well, a common theme among them is that my worlds and NPCs seem too "blobby", to use one of their terms. Not saying they aren't interesting, just bland and lacking description. This is due to my own attempt at awareness. Years ago when I started being a GM, I was really insecure about public speaking, and still am outside of the basement. So when it came to description and narration, I was quiet and short-winded. I still really haven't grown out of it all of the way, obviously. It's become a problem and I want to change my style, but I don't want to over do it. Since I thought what I was doing was enough, and I'm not, I just wanted your opinions and thoughts on how you do it.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 29, 2013 14:47:16 GMT -8
It kind of depends on what kind of game you want to have. If you want to encourage your players to take some part in your worldbuilding, leaving some of the environment undescribed leaves it open for them to shape the surroundings somewhat. For example, if we're in a tavern having a brawl, I might say "I grab the mop from where it's leaning against the wall, and break it across the bouncer's skull!" (If you're running a FATE game, leaving this kind of narrative space available lets your players make declarations easier, as well.) One thing you could try is trolling the internet for images of the places and things you are featuring (love me some google image search) to get ideas of how to describe them. Say you've got a bard ( www.google.com/search?q=minstrel+bard&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=-mLPUcfaJomC9gSpsYHYDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=732 ) you could pick one or two out, and build a description out of that. "He's playing a flute jauntily. His yellow doublet has slitted sleeves, and his cap is red. His huge handlebar moustache is well-waxed, and he throws your group a wink." That would be fine enough for a cursory description, in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 15:04:59 GMT -8
I'm currently running and L5R game. For an example of my descriptive style, one of my players today stayed at the keep of the neighboring clan daimyo. I said, "When you slide open the door, you see first the painting of cherry blossoms on the wall. In and on the other side is a sleeping mat and to the left of that is a small one drawer end table with gold filigree scrolls for handles."
I tended to rely on the player's own imagination to essentially "fill in the blanks". One player would think of a vastly different cherry blossom painting than another and one would put a window where I didn't think to put one.
sbloyd, in your example of the bard, that would seem to be too much for me, but next session I'll try to add more like that. What do you think of describing ambient things such as lighting, or weather?
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 29, 2013 15:17:32 GMT -8
I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing, really. I'd almost say that it sounds like your players might be expecting too much of you, narratively.
For weather (as well as for other things), you could throw in mention of scents; smell is one of the most easily keyed senses in terms of memory. Easily keyed sounds work, too. "A cool wind brushes your face, carrying the tang of a coming storm." "There's a nip in the air, and fallen leaves crunch underfoot. The trees in this forest will soon be stripped bare."
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jun 29, 2013 17:22:28 GMT -8
Failsquirrel, are you writing these descriptions down in advance and reading them out at the table, or are you improvising the words as you go?
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Post by maxinstuff on Jun 30, 2013 2:10:26 GMT -8
For environments, use a concise description that encompasses the area, then describe one or two notable things in more detail (if there are any).
The 'notable' part is important, no-one wants to hear detailed assessments of masonry and carpets, the length of the grass, or how many mushrooms are growing per foot.
Keep it tight.
Here is an example from a D&D description generator: " You push open the stone door to this room and note that the only other exit is a door made of wood. It and the table shoved against it are warped and swollen. Indeed, the table only barely deserves that description. Its surface is rippled into waves and one leg doesn't even touch the floor. The door shows signs of someone trying to chop through from the other side, but it looks like they gave up."
All this description lacks is a word or two on the size of the room. Notice that they only described 2 'things' - a door and a table. But it paints such a lovely picture of what must have happened there.
I generated a few other descriptions and they were just garbage - so I wont bother linking it.
Just describe a few key things that paint a picture - and keep it factual. Players don't like being told how a room makes them feel, so try to avoid fiction-speak cliche's that are meant to describe character feelings to an audience. Things like 'you feel a snse of foreboding as you enter' or 'dread washes over you as you enter'. No-one wants to hear that shit (the generator did it a lot).
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jun 30, 2013 2:17:04 GMT -8
I'm currently running and L5R game. For an example of my descriptive style, one of my players today stayed at the keep of the neighboring clan daimyo. I said, "When you slide open the door, you see first the painting of cherry blossoms on the wall. In and on the other side is a sleeping mat and to the left of that is a small one drawer end table with gold filigree scrolls for handles." I tended to rely on the player's own imagination to essentially "fill in the blanks". Ask the players what the essential facts are that they want from the description. I use this rule - Dimensions - approximately how large is the area? Exits - what other exits are there? Objects - what interesting objects are here? Flavour - something extra to convey some tone and feel (sensory onss are good as noted above) Your descriptions sound good narratively, but the players probably feel they are missing some key facts that they need. Size of the room is a good example - because it is often unnecessary in a novel, but is quite essential in a game. And apologies for the double post.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 3:17:38 GMT -8
Ha! Kaituo is the name of an important NPC in my L5R game. Anyway, I only write down major descriptions that are a bit long, since my memory is pretty good. Even then, they are rare. Most of it is on the spot, because I try to yes and a lot.
Thanks for the detail Maxintstuff, I am about to run an All Flesh Must Be Eaten game in an hour or so, and will incorporate your advice. I've already written down on my session notes, DEOF.
Thank you guys for the help, hopefully this next session will be less blobby for them. Wish me luck.
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Post by greatwyrm on Jun 30, 2013 4:22:50 GMT -8
You also need to remember the more you talk about the place they're in, the more the players will think there's some important detail there to find.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jun 30, 2013 7:52:53 GMT -8
The idea of being descriptive without being too descriptive should be a topic. Which systems encourage narrative combat, descriptive combat, numbers heavy combat. Why is the word cinematic used to describe systems which are often considered less deadly ?
I would describe L5R to be a fairly deadly system and yet we could certainly have a very lurid description of katanas slicing as the building burns down around the bloody and dying samurai.
As written pathfinder/3.5 can quickly fall into a boring I hit/you hit war of attrition. We've house ruled called shots and critical effects to make the fights more engaging and descriptive.
Its been good to have all these actual plays to go back to and give another listen, including our own. My online pathfinder game involved fairly narrative environmental descriptors until I put a map and tokens up. Then "the darkened courtyard is filled with fine warm sand" became, "Over there in that corner by that door by that thingy..." I need to work on that.
This should be a topic.
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Post by guitarspider on Jul 1, 2013 11:16:23 GMT -8
I tended to rely on the player's own imagination to essentially "fill in the blanks". One player would think of a vastly different cherry blossom painting than another and one would put a window where I didn't think to put one. I do the same, I use my players' imagination. I find that the key is to pick out one or two senses that makes this method work, not counting vision. So I might say "As you're trudging along the moon-light alleys in the quarter of the craftsmen, you can't help but notice its acrid smell slowly burning itself into your nose, until you almost don't mind it anymore." or "You shake his hand, he's got smooth and soft skin." That way you produce distinct and short descriptions that get the important point about a person or location or thing across without writing novels and it gives the players something they can easily relate to. The fact that people will imagine locations differently doesn't need to be a problem. Mostly if a player says "I thought there was a window here" or "I figured she had brown hair" you can just say "Cool, why not." These differences only become a problem if the GM doesn't adapt his vision to the players where it doesn't matter much or if the player is missing/misunderstanding vital information in the first place. But then I don't think the solution necessarily is to become more descriptive, but to pay more attention to what needs to be described to create a shared imagined space that sufficiently overlaps with all the separated imagined spaces of the players (including GM) around the table. edit: So to make this clear, if the fact that there are exactly three windows in this room is important, your players should know that (and any other facts about the windows that they can glean by just looking and is vital for the game). If it doesn't matter how many windows there are, add them if your players ask for them. Most likely you'll have a situation where window number doesn't matter and everybody is imagining different numbers of windows and you'll never actually notice.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jul 3, 2013 7:28:02 GMT -8
Letting players fill in the blanks is a good tool, but I think it can be taken too far, particularly for important locations such as places where characters are looking for clues. In this, I disagree with Stu to some extent: if it's an important location, I want more detail than "a typical wizard's workshop." But it doesn't have to be a lot more detail. Mentioning a couple of unique items in the room could be enough.
I also use color a lot in my descriptions. That's just how my mental images work.
P.S. Love your avatar, Failsquirrel!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 14:32:38 GMT -8
You also need to remember the more you talk about the place they're in, the more the players will think there's some important detail there to find. This is so true. My buddy was running us through a campaign and we'd ended up in this ancient temple. He mentioned how dark the room was and how the floor was covered in layers of dust but we could barely see intricate tile work beneath them. He went into sch detail that we ended up spending the entire session lighting the room and then cleaning it so we could study the tiles, which were nothing more then a mosaic that he hadn't planned to be of any importance at all. The important stuff was all on lower levels but it took two more sessions to find it because we kept getting caught up on his descriptions. Drove him so crazy that for several sessions after that we couldn't get much more then a "You enter a room, its big." Out of him.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jul 3, 2013 14:43:51 GMT -8
Maybe he should have used the tiles to move you folks onward. "You make out the outline of a man... (Perception check)... Yes, he appears to be gesturing towards the west door."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 8:47:12 GMT -8
It didn't help that the mosaic appeared to be a dragon and we had a very proud dragonborne cleric in the team who decided he had to consecrate the place because he was now convinced it was a temple to a dragon god and had been profaned by beasts.
The GM ended up using the mosaic later as foreshadowing of a big bad we hadn't known existed. Basically a sleeping dragon god. So in the long run it worked out. I think he was too tired that particular night to actually think up a good way to guide us out of the chamber once we'd started cleaning it but he took some good notes for later use.
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