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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 4:37:57 GMT -8
I'm in the process of designing a system for a private group of friends. On a basic level the system is pretty old school and resembles something most of us are well familiar with. For that reason, I thought I would throw this question I encountered out there.
The basis of player characters are six attributes only slightly different from the D&D norm: STRength, FORtitude, DEXterity, PERception, INTelligence, and CHArisma. Let's call them primary attributes. These are grouped in pairs, forming six subsets of secondary attributes. That is - for now there is only five and this is where we arrive at my question:
Is there a secondary attribute that it would make sense to derive from STR and CHA?
It's not that there absolutely has to be, but the five other subsets came so naturally to me that this last one got me wondering. I considered a "leadership" attribute, but couldn't really provide rationale behind having STR be important there. "Intimidation/interrogation" could make sense, but is a bit too minor compared to the other derivatives. I would rather have it as a skill linked to either attribute as this is also a thing within my system's rules.
To give you an idea of what I'm looking for, these are the five secondary attributes and the pairs of primary attributes they are derived from:
STR |||||> Resist physical trauma. Deals with resistance vs. crushing blows, etc FOR
FOR |||||> Physical defense. Deals with avoiding/reducing incoming damage. DEX
DEX |||||> Speed/reflexes. Deals with initiatives and some in-combat actions PER
PER |||||> Awareness. Picking up subtle clues. Noticing details. INT
INT |||||> Willpower. Used for some mental defenses and generally tests of will CHA
CHA |||||> ? STR
So, any ideas? Again, I don't absolute need another derivative, but it would be more elegant to have one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 5:56:15 GMT -8
There really aren't any skills to that use Strength and Charisma that I can think of. In Interrogation is more a mental game and big on manipulation. More a Int+Cha then Str+Cha. Beating information out of someone rarely gives accurate info.
Of course I don't really get how Fortitude has anything to do with physical defense either. Its the overcoming of pain and adversity to keep going. Its endurance and courage. What you are describing in the second one seems more STR+DEX then FOR+DEX.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 6:27:57 GMT -8
There really aren't any skills to that use Strength and Charisma that I can think of. In Interrogation is more a mental game and big on manipulation. More a Int+Cha then Str+Cha. Beating information out of someone rarely gives accurate info. Of course I don't really get how Fortitude has anything to do with physical defense either. Its the overcoming of pain and adversity to keep going. Its endurance and courage. What you are describing in the second one seems more STR+DEX then FOR+DEX. I might have to rename that one. It is intended to be something like constitution and fortitude in one. So both physical and mental resistance to pain, strain, disease/poison, and other stuff that will try to compromise your physique's defenses. I guess simply "constitution" is a better fit? Perhabs "health"?
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 2, 2013 6:49:31 GMT -8
Charisma in gaming is sometimes considered to also be force of will. So, strong will and strong body... Perseverence? Hm...
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Post by HourEleven on Sept 2, 2013 7:48:56 GMT -8
A slightly different way to think of it is that there is an element of Power, of Resistance, and of Finesse for physical situations, mental situations, and social situations. As White Wolf games use it:
I think Str+Chr would be a measure of social force. A combination of how you present yourself and handle yourself as confident, strong
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Post by Skizzle on Sept 2, 2013 10:36:26 GMT -8
Comeliness, seduction, something like that. Don't believe me, see how wet women get over Chaning Tatum; STR+CHA equals lady boner. Also, leadership, motivation, something like that for men and even women in a military/combat scenario.
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oldnemrod
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Post by oldnemrod on Sept 2, 2013 11:25:15 GMT -8
Well you have INT+CHA as willpower. That could be resistance to mental trauma that you handle logically. STR+CHA says to me more specifically EGO. How prone you are to doubt your own abilities?
INT+CHA is your trust in the world. Your morality and justification for it. STR+CHA is your trust in your capabilities. Or maybe the control you have over your emotions? Like a raging barbarian that benefits from using CHA as a dump stat to make STR higher?
Just saw that you have a way of tracking physical trauma and physical defense. Just figured you could have stats that perform the same for mental.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 12:00:59 GMT -8
These overlap too much with CHA's role for my taste. <abbr data-timestamp="1378149915000" class="time" title="Sept 2, 2013 21:25:15 GMT 2">
Sept 2, 2013 21:25:15 GMT 2</abbr> oldnemrod said:Well you have INT+CHA as willpower. That could be resistance to mental trauma that you handle logically. STR+CHA says to me more specifically EGO. How prone you are to doubt your own abilities? INT+CHA is your trust in the world. Your morality and justification for it. STR+CHA is your trust in your capabilities. Or maybe the control you have over your emotions? Like a raging barbarian that benefits from using CHA as a dump stat to make STR higher? Just saw that you have a way of tracking physical trauma and physical defense. Just figured you could have stats that perform the same for mental. Yeah, I follow you. But I think those will be too difficult to differentiate.
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Post by Skizzle on Sept 2, 2013 12:08:48 GMT -8
Charisma is NOT physical beauty. Not at all. It is the power of exerting your will onto others.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 12:33:34 GMT -8
Charisma is NOT physical beauty. Not at all. It is the power of exerting your will onto others. No, but STR + CHA could point to the overall package of attractiveness between personality and physicality. So it could be something as simple as Attractiveness, though from what has been posted so far I don't think that stat would fit with the system he's making.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 13:20:19 GMT -8
Charisma is NOT physical beauty. Not at all. It is the power of exerting your will onto others. No, but STR + CHA could point to the overall package of attractiveness between personality and physicality. So it could be something as simple as Attractiveness, though from what has been posted so far I don't think that stat would fit with the system he's making. Yeah, I get that CHA doesn't equal beauty. You can even have a below average yet charismatic person. What I am saying is that CHA can already fill the role of representing beauty and more. Attractiveness is not core enough for my game to warrant several scores. Thanks for the suggestions though, I don't mean to sound ungrateful.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 2, 2013 15:10:09 GMT -8
Presence.
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oldnemrod
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Post by oldnemrod on Sept 2, 2013 16:09:30 GMT -8
It almost seems that Charisma is so broad as it is, there doesn't seem to be anything Strength could add to it that it doesn't already cover. I kept thinking that if Charisma covers appearance, maybe Strength could add to it to create manners or body language. But Charisma covers that too.
Would it be easier to do some switching? Maybe FOR=CHA and STR=DEX. The strength dex combo can still cover defense and fortitude charisma combo could show that resiliency with leadership. Someone that ignores their own damage to give courage to his allies.
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Post by The Northman on Sept 3, 2013 3:51:42 GMT -8
Flexing, bro.
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Post by heavymetaljess on Sept 4, 2013 9:32:49 GMT -8
Came here to say this. For instance, two characters are trying to command attention. The high charisma bard can be charming and say the right thing, but the warrior might rely more on her strength and physical presence (like a quiet commander). An attractive, barbarian fighter could then have more presence than both.
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