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Post by Skizzle on Sept 8, 2013 17:53:45 GMT -8
With Numenera out and my going back to re-read Eberron, I began to toy with the the concept of a non-traditional (read non Tolkien) game setting. I am curious as to the thoughts and opinions on the subject from a group I can respect. It is my finding that,despite statements made by most gamers/groups of, "I don't want to play lord of the rings" they almost always end up playing lord of the rings. And I mean that in the most generic, standard fantasy way: pathfinder, d&d worlds, Midgard setting, dragon age; it's all just medieval European fantasy. And basically middle earth at heart.
So, are we just prone to take the easy road or is Tolkien so ingrained i our gamer brains we can't rebel/move on?
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Post by rickno7 on Sept 8, 2013 18:22:36 GMT -8
I think where most go wrong is when they try to put in stuff that is familiar enough to ease people into a setting. Dragon Age, for example, still has Dwarves and Elves. The land is still dotted with castles and dragons. There is still Gods moving behind the scenes to direct destiny and society.
I think that's why L5R is such a breath of fresh air to some players, its a fantasy we're not so intimately familiar with. Thing is, it is still based on established myths and legends.
I think the first step any setting can take to convince me they are different is not to have the same old character races. Even Star Trek has Elves and tall lobster foreheaded dwarves.
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Post by inflatus on Sept 8, 2013 18:24:18 GMT -8
For me playing a non-traditional fantasy setting was as easy as having humans as the only race. That also applied to the NPC's and monsters. An all human world got us away from the Tolkien type setting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2013 18:49:22 GMT -8
Dark Sun, you literally can not play Lord of the Rings when all the elves are blood thirsty criminals and half your party is made of bug men who make weapons from their spit.
The best game I ever played was a Dark Sun campaign in 2e when I was a kid, and the best one I've run so far was a Dark Sun campaign in 4e.
Storywise mind you, the most fun running a system has been several pulp FATE games.
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Post by Skizzle on Sept 9, 2013 1:22:20 GMT -8
Thanks for the responses thus far. I am glad to see some people already step outside the box and maybe more are its just they don't get that chance to do so. I did run a humans only Norse campaign and that was a hit (but really, everyone loves Norse myths/Vikings).
I guess I am just curious as to why so many games are basically re-treads of Lord of the Rings despite everyone lamenting that concept.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 5:43:40 GMT -8
I have this same problem too. I think what's really interesting about the entire "Lord of the Rings" fantasy style is that was very far from what Gygax had in mind for DnD. I recently started reading through the infamous Appendix N, starting with Conan the Barbarian. My god it's different. Magic was an unknown and deadly force, the land is strewn with different races of men, and the adventures are more dungeon delve than epic quest. Also it's not set in a medieval setting, which really helps.
Still trying to convince a group that this is the kind of game I want to run/play though...
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 9, 2013 6:27:29 GMT -8
Where I've had success is to take what looks like a typical fantasy setting and then change the rules.
In one game I ran (as an example) elves as a culture were the principal supplier of slaves to the human kingdoms. That those slaves were largely human from other places or dwarves was of little concern to the humans. (For people in my Fantasy Hero game this is a theme that is going to come back by the way) This was largely because elves instead of being forest dwellers were a sea faring people and had the most advanced ship building and sailing capabilities.
Certainly this still has much the same feel as a typical fantasy game, but by changing the rules can make it into something very different.
JiB
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Post by shadrack on Sept 9, 2013 8:31:28 GMT -8
I love Dark Sun, and for another different view, I really like Sundered Skies. Similar to the game JiB's just mentioned, the Elves are slavers (they basically engineer this servitor race). And, if you stay out in the sunlight too long, you go crazy just in time to turn into some horrible twisted version of yourself. Oh, and there isn't actually a sun it's just always bright outside. ALL THE TIME.
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D.T. Pints
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Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 9, 2013 14:34:34 GMT -8
Where I've had success is to take what looks like a typical fantasy setting and then change the rules. In one game I ran (as an example) elves as a culture were the principal supplier of slaves to the human kingdoms. That those slaves were largely human from other places or dwarves was of little concern to the humans. (For people in my Fantasy Hero game this is a theme that is going to come back by the way) This was largely because elves instead of being forest dwellers were a sea faring people and had the most advanced ship building and sailing capabilities. Certainly this still has much the same feel as a typical fantasy game, but by changing the rules can make it into something very different. JiB That's been exactly the direction my Awakening of the Desert King Pathfinder campaign has gone. The elves are more like the Wraith of Stargate. Very powerful planar, spell jammer style race enslaving and manipulating the "lesser races" . Lets me dump some sci fi into my fantasy...definitely keeps it non traditional... Be interested on hearing some d20 sci fi recommendations to steal from actually.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 9, 2013 14:34:45 GMT -8
Where I've had success is to take what looks like a typical fantasy setting and then change the rules. In one game I ran (as an example) elves as a culture were the principal supplier of slaves to the human kingdoms. That those slaves were largely human from other places or dwarves was of little concern to the humans. (For people in my Fantasy Hero game this is a theme that is going to come back by the way) This was largely because elves instead of being forest dwellers were a sea faring people and had the most advanced ship building and sailing capabilities. Certainly this still has much the same feel as a typical fantasy game, but by changing the rules can make it into something very different. JiB That's been exactly the direction my Awakening of the Desert King Pathfinder campaign has gone. The elves are more like the Wraith of Stargate. Very powerful planar, spell jammer style race enslaving and manipulating the "lesser races" . Lets me dump some sci fi into my fantasy...definitely keeps it non traditional... Be interested on hearing some d20 sci fi recommendations to steal from actually.
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Post by ericfromnj on Sept 10, 2013 10:30:03 GMT -8
Arcana Evolved - no elves, no dwarves, no hobbits. Savage Lion Men mix with fey creatures and their Giant masters see all from the Diamond Throne.
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 10, 2013 18:15:35 GMT -8
I think where most go wrong is when they try to put in stuff that is familiar enough to ease people into a setting. Dragon Age, for example, still has Dwarves and Elves. The land is still dotted with castles and dragons. There is still Gods moving behind the scenes to direct destiny and society. I think that's why L5R is such a breath of fresh air to some players, its a fantasy we're not so intimately familiar with. Thing is, it is still based on established myths and legends. I think the first step any setting can take to convince me they are different is not to have the same old character races. Even Star Trek has Elves and tall lobster foreheaded dwarves. Yeah, I gotta disagree. Just right here in this thread you've got examples of two different published settings with the standard races that aren't at all Tolkeinesque. Not to mention that Tolkein didn't invent the epic fantasy trope, he just popularized it and made it accessable. He was borrowing quite heavily from the Nordic/Germanic myths.
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Post by Skizzle on Sept 10, 2013 18:45:36 GMT -8
I think where most go wrong is when they try to put in stuff that is familiar enough to ease people into a setting. Dragon Age, for example, still has Dwarves and Elves. The land is still dotted with castles and dragons. There is still Gods moving behind the scenes to direct destiny and society. I think that's why L5R is such a breath of fresh air to some players, its a fantasy we're not so intimately familiar with. Thing is, it is still based on established myths and legends. I think the first step any setting can take to convince me they are different is not to have the same old character races. Even Star Trek has Elves and tall lobster foreheaded dwarves. Yeah, I gotta disagree. Just right here in this thread you've got examples of two different published settings with the standard races that aren't at all Tolkeinesque. Not to mention that Tolkein didn't invent the epic fantasy trope, he just popularized it and made it accessable. He was borrowing quite heavily from the Nordic/Germanic myths. Yes, but EVERY fantasy setting tries to out Tolkien, Tolkien. Very, very little fantasy in our fantasy. The Appendix N comment is spot on. Gamers really should read that shit, though shit some of it might be.
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 10, 2013 21:26:50 GMT -8
Actually, again, they don't. DarkSun, and Eberron don't. I would actually argue that the Forgotten Realms really doesn't either. Despite some outstanding differences, I would grant that DragonLance followed fairly closely to a Tolkeinesque formula, but gave it a good twist.
Add Planescape, SpellJammer, Ravenloft, ... the hollow-earth one that was meant for Basic....
I would actually argue that the majority of the official settings didn't.
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Post by Skizzle on Sept 11, 2013 0:54:21 GMT -8
Actually, again, they don't. DarkSun, and Eberron don't. I would actually argue that the Forgotten Realms really doesn't either. Despite some outstanding differences, I would grant that DragonLance followed fairly closely to a Tolkeinesque formula, but gave it a good twist. Add Planescape, SpellJammer, Ravenloft, ... the hollow-earth one that was meant for Basic.... I would actually argue that the majority of the official settings didn't. Elves, dwarves, hobbits, gnomes, orcs. Those are all plain vanilla, regardless if how they get dressed up. Dark Sun had bug people and removed medieval landscapes; it is closest to a non-T setting, but still included as its core the generic, established fantasy races. Eberron is a neat idea of what could te setting actually be like if magic were real. However, it still chose to follow standard races plus the monsters now had a say, and the back drop is still middle earth, but now with magic choo-choo trains. Those two get first and second place, easily. Spelljammer is d&d in space. Same vanilla races with a twist and Mage^Drives. And giant hamsters. Ravenloft is just Transylvania 6-5000 with vanilla races and fog. Planescape. That is also a contender for a prize for stepping outside the box. At least it felt alien, unknowable. Forgotten Realms is so far up its own ass chasing the dream of out Epic Fantasying Tolkien, that it is just another medieval fantasy setting with non-white, I mean European tropes as bad guys. I am talking no elevens, no dwarves, no hobbitses, no humans. Totally alien, no, these guys are vulcans but evil!1! twists. I think it is difficult to put one's self in such a frame, but then again 99% of all games and APs are really just playing up the humans in funny skins. We don't need M. Nightn Shyamalan Settings. Or, maybe we do actually.
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