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Post by Stu Venable on Oct 21, 2013 10:03:20 GMT -8
HJRP1019 – Campaign Endings
Your hosts: Stu, Stork, JiB, Tyler
Show Notes! We discuss ending campaigns, what players want from a good ending, how to handle loose ends, etc. Michael in Texas writes in with some praise, and we thank him for his generosity. We would also like to thank everyone who has purchased audio gear from our wish list and those of you who have donated to the JDRF walk as well. Your generosity has been humbling. Thank you.
Quinn is involved with a Kickstarter for a City of Heroes type game and asks what would make an MMORPG worthy of the last three letters. Peter from Hamshire writes in about PCs who can do everything, and furries. Tyler squirms.
Bob writes in with some tips resulting from his experience at Gateway 2013. Chuck relates the story of his game based on one of the Two Sides: One Epic entries. And Barney writes in to extol the virtues of running side quests and such between sessions on an on line forum.
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Post by Stu Venable on Oct 21, 2013 14:58:33 GMT -8
And if you're looking for that link for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation Walk donation page, it's here.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 21, 2013 20:12:43 GMT -8
Just because I just finished listening and was already thinking about sound quality...I'll put this on the forum because though I may be a sound guy (DJ, musician, radio) my ears have had their fair share of punishment from fishing boat diesel engines and hydraulics so I may just not be hearing things well but: For whatever reason Tyler came in the clearest during this episode. So much so that there was a fair amount of breathing and random "Tyler noise" coming from his mic. While Stu, Stork, and JiB came out tinny and a bit flat. Am I wrong on that ? I heard it mentioned that you three were on the new mics while Tyler was on the old ? Anyway just an observation. Regarding ending campaigns: I definitely think when the GM is getting itchy feet to run something else, or the players are starting to lose interest, wrap that shit up! SirGuido in our L5R game "A Gaijin's Guide to Rokugan" did a great job of finishing our campaign with a BIG battle with lots of chances for epic (read cool shit) opportunities for our samurai. So much so we even had character death and that just made that last session all the more interesting. So while I agree wrapping up 'individual' character threads is very important, having a BIG finish (doesn't necessarily have to involve a BIG battle) in my mind as a GM is important. All this talk of collaborative narrative (RPGRT02) is great but I when I'm a player I WANT the GM to drop some real "OH SHIT!" moments on me and the the other players. That's what we'll remember, those are the things that don't necessarily come out of collaboration but from the GM deciding to take the story into a definitive conclusion. I do hope that Catalina scenario comes together. From the various playtests of MoT I feel that horror is what that game will really shine at best. In fact I'd say both playtests (the modern, the fantasy) felt mostly like a building horror campaign...something I get the feeling Stu really likes to create. Possibly because they are the most difficult but most rewarding games to run? Three Weeks to Jackeron Everybody!
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
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HJRP1019
Oct 22, 2013 2:46:07 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by maxinstuff on Oct 22, 2013 2:46:07 GMT -8
Yep - when the use by date is approaching on the campaign, SHTF.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 22, 2013 3:33:50 GMT -8
I agree with JiB about campaigns - keep it personal: a characters story arc may end but the world collaboratively created can persist. Perhaps to be put on hiatus and bought out again at a later date with a set of fresh ideas, fresh characters, mayhaps even fresh players - all treading in the historical footsteps of what has gone before. I find with this approach the history of such a world becomes self creating : the GM doesn't have to create myths and legends and rumours after awhile - the players through their various PC's do that work for the GM (by becoming the various myths, being the figures of legend and the objects of rumour). For my self, as a personal preference as player it GM, the most unsatisfying campaign type is the save the universe or we all die single epic quest . . . It can't help but be a railroad and when it's done it's done and even after changing systems or milieus that trope gets a bit 'neh' after a the first couple of universe saves/fails Aaron Aaron
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 22, 2013 6:37:14 GMT -8
I agree with JiB about campaigns - keep it personal: a characters story arc may end but the world collaboratively created can persist. Perhaps to be put on hiatus and bought out again at a later date with a set of fresh ideas, fresh characters, mayhaps even fresh players - all treading in the historical footsteps of what has gone before. I find with this approach the history of such a world becomes self creating : the GM doesn't have to create myths and legends and rumours after awhile - the players through their various PC's do that work for the GM (by becoming the various myths, being the figures of legend and the objects of rumour). For my self, as a personal preference as player it GM, the most unsatisfying campaign type is the save the universe or we all die single epic quest . . . It can't help but be a railroad and when it's done it's done and even after changing systems or milieus that trope gets a bit 'neh' after a the first couple of universe saves/fails Aaron Aaron Agreed. Not SAVE THE UNIVERSE but if X happens there will be a profound ripple effect in the world...for better or worse. The story definitely needs to be told from the players perspective and personal moments should abound. But if its a campaign we are talking about ending I want to see the WORLD the PCs are in somehow be affected to create those "legends and myths" for future characters. All of this talk about telling personal stories makes me wonder if some GMs are shying away from epic stories because they might feel contrived? But I have to say these are imaginary, fictitious worlds we GMS are creating. Shouldn't moments arrive where we smash, rend, tear and break them apart and see what the pieces look like? Shouldn't we provide opportunities for the PCs to be able to do that breaking and rending ? Or our creations too precious ? My Awakening of the Desert King Campaign is entering into its second year. I HAVE NO IDEA how this will end...I do know I want the players to have a major role in who comes out on top of this power struggle. Will it be the planes jumping slaver elves ? the religiously militant dwarves who have just found "the weapon to end all wars" ? the scrappy human civilizations still in their infancy ? the forces of the Worlds Below ? The Living Dead ? All of those possibilities create what I hope shall be an epic ending for what has so far been a personal but epic campaign. They also each allow for a rather amazing new campaign to begin. We shall see. They might just all go off to the wilds and say fuck it. Which would also be an epic ending...
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 22, 2013 7:14:20 GMT -8
I agree with JiB about campaigns - keep it personal: a characters story arc may end but the world collaboratively created can persist. Perhaps to be put on hiatus and bought out again at a later date with a set of fresh ideas, fresh characters, mayhaps even fresh players - all treading in the historical footsteps of what has gone before. I find with this approach the history of such a world becomes self creating : the GM doesn't have to create myths and legends and rumours after awhile - the players through their various PC's do that work for the GM (by becoming the various myths, being the figures of legend and the objects of rumour). For my self, as a personal preference as player it GM, the most unsatisfying campaign type is the save the universe or we all die single epic quest . . . It can't help but be a railroad and when it's done it's done and even after changing systems or milieus that trope gets a bit 'neh' after a the first couple of universe saves/fails Aaron Aaron Agreed. Not SAVE THE UNIVERSE but if X happens there will be a profound ripple effect in the world...for better or worse. The story definitely needs to be told from the players perspective and personal moments should abound. But if its a campaign we are talking about ending I want to see the WORLD the PCs are in somehow be affected to create those "legends and myths" for future characters. All of this talk about telling personal stories makes me wonder if some GMs are shying away from epic stories because they might feel contrived? But I have to say these are imaginary, fictitious worlds we GMS are creating. Shouldn't moments arrive where we smash, rend, tear and break them apart and see what the pieces look like? Shouldn't we provide opportunities for the PCs to be able to do that breaking and rending ? Or our creations too precious ? My Awakening of the Desert King Campaign is entering into its second year. I HAVE NO IDEA how this will end...I do know I want the players to have a major role in who comes out on top of this power struggle. Will it be the planes jumping slaver elves ? the religiously militant dwarves who have just found "the weapon to end all wars" ? the scrappy human civilizations still in their infancy ? the forces of the Worlds Below ? The Living Dead ? All of those possibilities create what I hope shall be an epic ending for what has so far been a personal but epic campaign. They also each allow for a rather amazing new campaign to begin. We shall see. They might just all go off to the wilds and say fuck it. Which would also be an epic ending... Don't get me wrong - I don't mind smashing the world but that should be player driven rather than GM contrived. It's like here's my world now go mess with it and after you've finished I'll see what remains and have a bit of a mess around with it myself ready for the next time we decide to journey there. It's the ones that always start with an artifact of great power or some such that has to be found/destroyed or everything dies that have the shortest life span. They're not all bad but they are a trifle predictable and their shelf life is on the level of an open bottle of cream in the midday sun. I love Lord of the Rings but I don't want to play/GM that epic quest everytime. The best fantasy books/movies that aren't Lord of the Rings are the ones that 'Aren't Lord of the Rings' Aaron
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Post by Stu Venable on Oct 22, 2013 7:20:06 GMT -8
Audio
Stork and I were using the same set up we've always used, except we both have handy-dandy articulating mic stands. Our signal chain was the same, though I had to put our compressors back to their original settings (my son LOVES to turn knobs).
Tyler and JiB were running through the new signal chain, which includes the new preamp and a outboard compressor I haven't used on the show before. I tweaked the settings during the show.
Tyler is, however, on one of my studio mics (the mics I use for music recording), and they are very sensitive and capture a lot of detail (like mouth noises, slurping of cider bottles, etc).
I'm going to rummage around for a less sensitive mic for the spot Tyler was sitting in.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 22, 2013 14:55:42 GMT -8
On the B5 front. Take this for what it's worth.
JMS has said in an interview that the possible cancelation of the show in Season 4 did not actually make him accelerate the plot. The only concession to that they did was the final episode was shot a year early. According to him, he always planned season 4 to end the way it did, and for season 5 to run the way it did. It was very much like the reasoning of Buffy season 5 (5? The one where they bring her back). "You did what you had to, you faced down the big bads and won. Now What?"
He says that the entire five year arc was supposed to mirror a novel. Introduction, Build Up, Twist, Resolution, Aftermath/Epilogue.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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HJRP1019
Oct 23, 2013 4:09:11 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by fredrix on Oct 23, 2013 4:09:11 GMT -8
I side with Dr Sheldon Cooper on B5, and think that season five was no worse than seasons 1-4. So the less said about that the better.
On closing campaigns though one of the accidentally most satisfying endings we ever had was to a long-running Traveller 2300 campaign. Me managed to keep the campaign together to a satisfying conclusion post school years when some of us were in college. My character for example, Jacob Trevellion had invented The BattleJack Battlefield Management System, and sold it to the Earth's militaries (and off the back of that, a successful BattleJacks Saturday morning cartoon and toy franchise).
The GM proposed a last adventure set some years after the campaign where we get together post retirement to Salvage some valuable tech, or money, or some sort of maguffin that I forget.
Long story short, we go, we fuck up and (some of us) limp home,empty handed. It wasn't a "high note" upon which to end. But it felt right.
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Post by malifer on Oct 23, 2013 4:26:44 GMT -8
For while now the 'cast has been a big proponent for Traveller especially the Character Gen.
I really like Traveller Rpg system, but the character gen is probably the worst thing I have in encountered in gaming since a damn MTG counterspell deck in the 90s. "You wanna play a game of magic? Fuck you counterspell!"
You could say it's all random, except it's not. First you have to decide what you want your character to start as.
Then you get to roll and see if that is even fucking possible.
Now if this is a new player I do not feel that is the best way to start a game. Because most people tend to explain Rpgs as a storytelling game where you can do anything.
Player "I'll be a Scout"
*rolls dice*
GM "No you failed"
Not really very empowering, creative, or fun.
My Traveller Character Gen was kind of like my first game of Settlers of Catan, the dice were not in my favor and I got to see how boring it could be. You get few choices and are left with roads to nowhere.
I never knew just making 4 characters and picking the best was an option? WTF was that Tyler?
My character ended up with I believe 2 good rolls in character gen and I think I pretty much Storked everything else. So it was a cock-block of a good time.
In the end I did not end up with the character I was looking forward to playing, but thankfully the space idiot I came up with was enjoyed by my group. However I hope he never dies because I never want to go through character gen again.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 23, 2013 4:53:56 GMT -8
Traveller character gen is different, rather than 'wrong', and it takes a change of mindset to get into it. Like anything possibly not everyones cup of tea (FTR I hate tea - coffee only please). I might be wrong but doesn't Mongoose Traveller include an optional point buy system as an alternative? Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 23, 2013 5:03:21 GMT -8
Furries: ah ah ahhhhhhh (intense pain) Tyler you CUNT!!! WHY WHY WHY did you have tell me about things WORSE than furries!!!! PLUSHIES MOTHERFUCKING PLUSHIES . . . AND THE REST . . . I remember a simple time when a well adjusted deviant could pull on a gimp suit with pride, slink off to the basement, and that would be enough *begins nailing boards across windows and doors muttering 'it's not safe out there it's not safe out there' . . . * (disturbed) Aaron
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Post by malifer on Oct 23, 2013 5:38:14 GMT -8
Traveller character gen is different, rather than 'wrong', and it takes a change of mindset to get into it. Like anything possibly not everyones cup of tea (FTR I hate tea - coffee only please). I might be wrong but doesn't Mongoose Traveller include an optional point buy system as an alternative? Aaron Yep there is a point buy system. But I think if you are using point buy, then it should be the whole group that does. My group was rolling so I rolled. I wouldn't say it is wrong as much as it is definitely in the mindset of Gygaxian D&D where you have to roll the dice to see which character class you are allowed to play and no one seems to think that is "cool" anymore. And don't get me wrong my hatred of the Character Creation doesn't bleed into the rest of the game. I like the combat, love the roll a "7" mechanic, and armor bloodly well soaks damage. The system is simple, fast and fun. I also really enjoy the Traveller I game I'm in, and I have turned my character into something I enjoy. But I think it is more in line with playing a Pre-Gen at a Con game. I like that there is background stuff you get for you GM, but other systems utilize a background mechanic without hijacking all of character gen. I would probably have a higher appreciation for it if there was just one more random table. That table would be Step 1 choose a Career Path. Instead of having the player choose a Career Path that you can then fail at, just take that first choice out of the equation and have them roll to see where that try to start. In the end that would be less disappointing than the possibility of being denied on your first choice in your first game.
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willh
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 220
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Post by willh on Oct 23, 2013 5:55:37 GMT -8
So, we can expect Tyler to run Albedoat Orc Con.
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