HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Nov 4, 2013 20:00:59 GMT -8
I'm intentionally being inflammatory here. You can respond however you think is appropriate. So I picked up the Numenera PDF last week and have been reading through it. Here are my initial thoughts: A) The setting is totally uninspiring. It's just your standard Fighter/Mage/Thief fantasy world, but with the word "magic" replaced with "nano" or "numenera". I realize that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic, but I was really hoping Numenera would make the tech actually feel like tech. Feh. B) For a game that claims to be focused on discovery, the rules for awarding XP from those discoveries is woefully thin. Monty says "Give the players XP for doing a thing, and that thing is what they'll do". And I agree with him. So If he wants the game to be about discovery, you'd think he have given better guidelines on how to reward those discoveries. But no. Basically the guidelines boil down to "give the players 1 to 4 XP for discovering something". That's it. Which is total bullshit. So there it is. I'll continue reading, but I am so far both unimpressed and disappointed.
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Post by ayslyn on Nov 4, 2013 20:24:28 GMT -8
....
Hoookay...
First. The setting isn't supposed to feel techy. That's the whole point of it. This is supposed to emulate the genre of science fantasy where tech has gone so far afield that we've basically gone back to "Ooooo Magic". Which is fine if that's not your thing. But saying it's bad because of it...
Second, one to four XP is a lot in this game.
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Post by ironnikki on Nov 5, 2013 14:24:10 GMT -8
I finally manage to eke out some time to return to the HJ forums, and this is what I find? An intentional inflammatory post criticizing a particular game system? ...color me not surprised :-p
Anyway, I've made my way through the Numenera book, and tbough I haven't had a chance to run it yet, I disagree with you so far, hyvemynd. I find the setting quite interesting, really, but that may just be because I'm used to playing in psuedo-european medival-esque settings (read: typical fantasy fare). I really appreciate the definite emphasis on exploration and discovery that's embedded in both the setting and the rules. The games that I've played recently (which are, admittedly, mostly the ones that I run) are so oriented on concrete tasks that discovery and exploration really fall to the wayside. That's likely colored my reaction to Numenera, but I don't think that's a bad thing. As to your point with the Numenera not feeling techy enough, I disagree with you a little there too: much of the artwork, several numenera descriptions, and even narrative advancement suggestions have a techy feel to them, particularly when it comes to implants. I'd argue that you could tune the 'techiness' of your Numenera game by selecting which numenera the characters find.
As to your second point, I do agree that the rules for awarding XP are a little scant. However, they're not quite as slight as you're suggesting: on page (109 print, 111 PDF), there's some more concrete rules for awarding XP. In a nutshell, when they find an artifact, give them a number of XP equal to the level divided among the number of players. When they discover something else interesting, give them each 1 XP. However, he doesn't really touch on XP rewards for less tactile discoveries (i.e: story elements, character background, universal truths, etc).
I'm sorry that you're not too impressed so far. Honestly, after going through the book, I felt inspired to include some of the game's aspects in my own games, but I was a little hesitant to play it myself (d20 core mechanic still gives me the shudders). However, I resolved to give it a shot, and am going to talk my group into running through the scenario in chapter 25. As to when that will actually happen... who knows?
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willh
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Post by willh on Nov 5, 2013 15:00:51 GMT -8
on page (109 print, 111 PDF) This right here is proof Numenera is a crap product. There is no excuse for PDF page numbers not matching up with the actual page numbers. It doesn't matter how many pages there are before Page 1, it is still possible to have them match up. OK, OK, crap product may be too strong, but that shit just bugs me. Spend 30 minutes to label the pre number* pages properly. Is there a technical term for those pages?
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Post by ayslyn on Nov 5, 2013 15:22:39 GMT -8
d20 core mechanic still gives me the shudders See, I don't get this... How is roll a d20 and beat a set number different than roll 3d6 and beat a number, or roll a variable die type and beat a number, or roll dF and beat a number.... Because, honestly, that's the extent of it's d20 mechanics. No six attributes, no HP, no AC... The mechanics (aside from a similar die type) are completely differnt than d20.
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Post by ayslyn on Nov 5, 2013 15:29:39 GMT -8
on page (109 print, 111 PDF) This right here is proof Numenera is a crap product. There is no excuse for PDF page numbers not matching up with the actual page numbers. It doesn't matter how many pages there are before Page 1, it is still possible to have them match up. OK, OK, crap product may be too strong, but that shit just bugs me. Spend 30 minutes to label the pre number* pages properly. Is there a technical term for those pages? Yes, and no... Because it's not actually a set practice to number the front matter of a book seperately from the main body and back matter. Many companies do, but not all. Tor, for instance, does not. The items that are found at the front of the book, (usually frontispiece, introductions, table of contents, sales pages, Also by pages, etc.) are known as front matter. Those found at the back (usually About the Author pages, excerpts from upcoming books, ads for other titles, glossaries and apendixes and the like) are known as back matter. The page difference here isn't because of front matter, though. It's because of the practice of putting the front and back covers of the physical book at the beginning of the PDF. It's sloppy, as it's not too hard to fix/get right, but it's not a game breaker to me.
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Post by SavageCheerleader on Nov 5, 2013 18:03:17 GMT -8
d20 core mechanic still gives me the shudders See, I don't get this... How is roll a d20 and beat a set number different than roll 3d6 and beat a number, or roll a variable die type and beat a number, or roll dF and beat a number.... Because, honestly, that's the extent of it's d20 mechanics. No six attributes, no HP, no AC... The mechanics (aside from a similar die type) are completely differnt than d20. You mean other than the flat % vs a bell curve? Under d20, where a 1 always fails, there is a 5% chance of that happening. Michael Phelps, in all his glory, can and will drown in d20 5% of the time.
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Post by SavageCheerleader on Nov 5, 2013 18:09:03 GMT -8
I'm intentionally being inflammatory here. You can respond however you think is appropriate. So I picked up the Numenera PDF last week and have been reading through it. Here are my initial thoughts: A) The setting is totally uninspiring. It's just your standard Fighter/Mage/Thief fantasy world, but with the word "magic" replaced with "nano" or "numenera". I realize that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic, but I was really hoping Numenera would make the tech actually feel like tech. Feh. B) For a game that claims to be focused on discovery, the rules for awarding XP from those discoveries is woefully thin. Monty says "Give the players XP for doing a thing, and that thing is what they'll do". And I agree with him. So If he wants the game to be about discovery, you'd think he have given better guidelines on how to reward those discoveries. But no. Basically the guidelines boil down to "give the players 1 to 4 XP for discovering something". That's it. Which is total bullshit. So there it is. I'll continue reading, but I am so far both unimpressed and disappointed. Holy shit and thank god I am not the only one who finds it just fucking dumb. 9 millionty eleventy bazillionty years in the future...mother fucker, humans cannot even grasp that amount of time. At all. 200 years old is mind numbing to us. But then again, MCook is one of those fantasy designers who thinks everything will stay the same, for "1,000 years there was peace in the land and no technical advancement ever".
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Nov 5, 2013 18:25:15 GMT -8
In the immortal words of Johnny Storm... FLAME ON! Heh. I didn't say the setting was bad ayslyn, just uninspiring. Though I suppose the title of my post implies otherwise. Arguing setting is like arguing ice cream flavors; no matter what anyone says, or how passionate they are about it, I just will not like strawberry. Period. My beef with Numenera is the same one I have with most fantasy settings. Magi... whoops, I mean numenera are meant to be strange, mysterious, and rare... except that they're not. PCs in Numenera use cyphers (one shot artifacts) the way PCs in D&D-esque games use scrolls. They're so ubiquitous that, despite earning XP for "discovering ancient tech", players don't earn XP for finding cyphers. That should tell you how common they are. It's another case of the setting saying one thing, but the rules and gameplay saying another. Speaking of cyphers, what's with limiting the number a character can carry based on their type and tier? A first-tier fight... err, glaive can carry two cyphers, but a third-tier glaive or a first-tier wiza... damn, nano can carry three? I understand this is a game, and therefore needs some kind of mechanical balance between the character types. But hot damn that is a sloppy way to do it in my opinion. The number of doo-dads you can carry at one time is determined by what job you do? Bullshit. Oh. Wait. I forgot. Cyphers also emit "radiation" and carrying too many of them at once causes the radiation to interact in strange and negative ways. So people don't do it. I guess. Whatever. That is some weak ass shit right there. Also, though I haven't read much of the gazetteer section yet, it seems as if some people/groups have the capability to manufacture and produce magic ite... whoops, I mean numenera, even if they don't totally understand the underlying process. Yet the book plays up the fact that different areas will have different numenera that people outside that area haven't seen. Again, it's the whole "numenera are strange and mysterious" thing. Sorry, but again, that is utter bullshit. Unless there is a giant physical barrier between areas, or unless there is absolutely no traffic between areas, or unless this Ninth World is just now coming out of the dark ages, those common cyphers will be everywhere. Technology spreads. Especially if it's better or more effective than what's currently being used. If, to use one example from the book, one town has the ability to produce "automatons" to plow their fields, then eventually, the surrounding towns and villages will too. If one city has the ability to install radio-communicators in it's soldiers helmets, other cities will follow suit either through trade or conquest. Maybe if you had something similar to what the Tokugawa Shogunate did in Japan in the mid-17th century. To prevent peasants being able to take on samurai (and therefore keeping the warrior caste intact), the technology, ability, and training in the use of guns was strictly regulated. Up until that time however, Japan had been absolutely gun crazy, producing more firearms (and better quality) than Europe. Controlling gun technology and availability in this way worked for nearly 250 years. But only because Japan is an island and therefore could isolate itself from outside influences. As soon as Commodore Perry showed up in 1854 though, Japan went right back to using the gun. It was either that, or be completely outmatched. All that being said, the "localized technology bullshit" is not unique to Numenera. It's a common problem with many fantasy RPG settings. I just was expecting something more from the great Monte Cook. Second, one to four XP is a lot in this game. I have no problem with the amount of XP that is awarded. I do play Apocalypse World games, remember? 1 XP in a AW game is 1/5th of a level, making it extremely valuable. What I have a problem with is how XP is awarded. I finally manage to eke out some time to return to the HJ forums, and this is what I find? An intentional inflammatory post criticizing a particular game system? ...color me not surprised :-p Welcome back to the forums. As to your second point, I do agree that the rules for awarding XP are a little scant. However, they're not quite as slight as you're suggesting: on page (109 print, 111 PDF), there's some more concrete rules for awarding XP. In a nutshell, when they find an artifact, give them a number of XP equal to the level divided among the number of players. When they discover something else interesting, give them each 1 XP. However, he doesn't really touch on XP rewards for less tactile discoveries (i.e: story elements, character background, universal truths, etc). I got the part about awarding XP for Artifacts. My beef is the next point you mention. The guidelines on how much XP to award for those less tactile elements, such as universal truths, non-artifact discoveries, and personal goals/quests is god damn short. Imagine the outrage if a new version of D&D game out that said "You get XP for fighting monsters, but it's up to you (the DM) to decide how much each monster is worth". That is essentially what Numenera does. And while GMs will eventually get a feel for how much XP certain things should be worth (depending on group preferences), not giving us guidelines or example to set a baseline is just dumb. Also, I totally agree with willh. If you're going to charge me $20 for a PDF (admittedly a 400+ page PDF), I would like the pages to line up. See, I don't get this... How is roll a d20 and beat a set number different than roll 3d6 and beat a number, or roll a variable die type and beat a number, or roll dF and beat a number.... Two words. Bell. Curve. *mike drop*
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nanoboy
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Post by nanoboy on Nov 5, 2013 18:27:28 GMT -8
You mean other than the flat % vs a bell curve? Under d20, where a 1 always fails, there is a 5% chance of that happening. Michael Phelps, in all his glory, can and will drown in d20 5% of the time. Yep, curves are sexy. Give me 3d6, 4dF, or something similar. Straight D20 is obnoxiously erratic.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Nov 5, 2013 18:28:43 GMT -8
Michael Phelps, in all his glory, can and will drown in d20 5% of the time. Ah ha ha ha ha. Win.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Nov 5, 2013 20:38:41 GMT -8
So HyveMynd, would you say your problem with the setting is that it seems as if it is ENTIRELY trappings - working in an identical fasion to classic fantasy with nothing meaningful to differentiate the gameplay. It sounds like your misgivings about the setting are actually a system problem?
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Nov 5, 2013 22:15:05 GMT -8
So HyveMynd, would you say your problem with the setting is that it seems as if it is ENTIRELY trappings - working in an identical fasion to classic fantasy with nothing meaningful to differentiate the gameplay. It sounds like your misgivings about the setting are actually a system problem? Well, I can't shake the feeling I'm setting myself up to be schooled real hard here, but yes. Apart from the XP issues (which are totally system-related), I think it's fair to say my beef with the setting is that it's entirely trappings. It's just a reskinned bog standard D&D setting, except with tech, nanos, and ultradimensionals in place of the usual artifacts, magic, and demons. The upside to this though, is you could run just about prepublished fantasy module in Numemera.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Nov 5, 2013 22:42:16 GMT -8
So HyveMynd, would you say your problem with the setting is that it seems as if it is ENTIRELY trappings - working in an identical fasion to classic fantasy with nothing meaningful to differentiate the gameplay. It sounds like your misgivings about the setting are actually a system problem? Well, I can't shake the feeling I'm setting myself up to be schooled real hard here, but yes. Apart from the XP issues (which are totally system-related), I think it's fair to say my beef with the setting is that it's entirely trappings. It's just a reskinned bog standard D&D setting, except with tech, nanos, and ultradimensionals in place of the usual artifacts, magic, and demons. The upside to this though, is you could run just about prepublished fantasy module in Numemera. This is the impression I got from your post. And you know what - I agree with you. It seems as if the SETTING is cool and original, but the SYSTEM is not pulling it's weight. If it just feels like old d&d then really the only meaningful contribution here is the setting itself, which could well have been published as a setting book for a system that does it a bit better justice. Maybe a monster-hunter style book (HERO)? There's a system capable of making 'numenara' FEEL different to magic.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Nov 5, 2013 23:52:55 GMT -8
Well, that's not entiry true maxinstuff. There are things I like about the Numenera system. It's not simply another d20 clone depite using a d20 for task resolution. Don't get me wrong, there are system elements that make me want to flip the table, but overall the system is intriguing enough for me to still want to play it. Ignoring the setting, naturally.
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