HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 4, 2013 1:34:55 GMT -8
As I said in another thread, my groups mini-campaign of Pathfinder will be wrapping up this week. So we're talking about what games/stories we'd like to run next. I've had an idea in my head for a while now, and wanted to know what other people thought, without spoiling the surprise for my group.
I want to play with the idea of fate.
I'm into Viking metal and Norse mythology, and one of the key aspects there is that a person's life is already written out. Not only is your fate already decided, but it is also unchangeable. You can run from your fate, but you can never get away from it. In the end, it will catch up with you. Of course, running from it means you're a cowardly little bitch. The thing to do (and the topic of many Viking metal songs) is to meet your fate head on with courage, and, if you're fated to die in battle, to take as many of those fucking bastards with you when you finally do die.
So, to translate that into a game, I'm interested to see how the players (and characters) react when they know the outcome of events right from the beginning. Will they continue down the path, attempting to meet their fate on their own terms, or will they spend their time trying to weasel out of something they can not escape.
While I'm not going to directly tell this to the players, I do intend to borrow blatantly from Norse mythology so that they eventually realize "Oh, we're playing out Ragnarok." As everyone knows how that ends, I'm hoping they'll figure out what's going on, and what eventual, inescapable fate awaits their characters.
I'm probably going to use the Fate Core system (as we want to try it out) and the Nova Praxis setting. It's transhuman sci-fi, though not as far out there as Eclipse Phase. Using a sci-fi setting will allow me to name things in such a way that the players figure out the Ragnarok thing pretty quickly.
So, thoughts? Does this sound interesting, or an I being too much of an "Art House GM" again?
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 4, 2013 2:09:16 GMT -8
It *could* work but it will be a very fine balancing act to avoid having the players feel like they've just been railroaded. The Dragon Lance series of adventures from the 80's tried to do something similar . . . It basically had manifest destinies and certain outcomes/resolutions were predetermined to move the plot forward in the established direction . . . It also codified and legitimised laying rail tracks, bush whacking the PC's and chaining them to seats on the train. This is why I dislike the Dragon Lance stuff so much and have never really rated Hickman & Weiss as game designers only as novelists. The problem with destinies is in the actual fate determined . . . If its too specific then a meta game becomes unavoidable eg: 'I am destined to die at the hands of Broom-fa-ha fighting atop Mt. Pancake . . . Therefore I cannot die here, today'. However if it's a bit vague and malleable eg: 'he is destined to bring balance to the force' . . . well look how that one turned out for the Jedi order and the Old Republic, Anakin did exactly that just not the way it was expected to be done or HAD to be done. Aaron
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daniel
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 217
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Post by daniel on Dec 4, 2013 4:07:33 GMT -8
On first glance it sounds extremely railroady. Fate as a concept is nice and can be cool in fantasy literature, but i think its one of those things that transfers the worse to gaming.
And just to ask the question because i think it might come up, if the end result is unchangeable why bother playing? But if you have people who dig that kind of thing it might work, i just feel like you run the risk of annoying everybody involved
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Post by greatwyrm on Dec 4, 2013 6:30:35 GMT -8
I'd argue in favor of telling your players up front. If you know your end is your end, no matter what, then it's really about how you get there. If they know that from the beginning, your players will have the best chances of making everything they can of it.
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Post by jazzisblues on Dec 4, 2013 7:46:00 GMT -8
Fun idea HyveMynd I want to play. Here's a thought for you. Have the players determine what their character's fate is before you start the game. Each player could write a statement of portent that is their character's ultimate fate. I would suggest keeping it open and painted in somewhat broad strokes rather than specific. eg. Bob the Viking is fated to die in glorious battle surrounded by the bodies of his enemies. Works because it gives you room to work with. but Bob the Viking will die from a dagger thrust between the 3rd and 4th ribs on a third Tuesday of the month but only one in which there is no moon. Is entirely too specific. This should be a collaborative effort between the gm and the players and could generate a lot of fun. Just a thought, JiB
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freyki
Apprentice Douchebag
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Post by freyki on Dec 4, 2013 12:09:28 GMT -8
@hyvemind I really like the idea of using Fate Core to simulate fate. And the main reason I like using that system is because of the Compel mechanic.
If you need a scene to move in a certain direction because of the dictates of fate, you can Compel an aspect on a character, scene, or even the game world. The players don't feel like they're on the plot railroad, and they get an awesome Fate point for their troubles.
On the subject of the Compel mechanic, I would be cautious about using decision compels, and stick with mostly event compels, if it were me. I know you're not a Fate Core noob, so that probably didn't even need to be said. But when, in my games, compels take center stage, I tend to use the decision compels sparingly. I find it feels less like the railroad. (End completely unsolicited Fate Core GMing advice!)
On a purely selfish note, I'd love to hear how the game goes. Sounds like a great way to stress test Fate Core!
-Freyki-
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oldnemrod
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Post by oldnemrod on Dec 4, 2013 16:00:19 GMT -8
I just finished re-watching the end of Dr Who season 4 where (SPOILERS) the Doctor dies/regenerates. It's one of my favorite episodes in that the Doctor goes the gamut of emotions when faced with his death. The prophecy of his death is great too. "He will knock four times." The whole time the Doctor believes it is the obvious enemy til the very end when his elderly partner knocks four times cause he is stuck in a trap. Good inspiration.
The only real problem I see is what they do with the knowledge of where Fate puts them. There is a movie called Big Fish. In it the main character meets a woman who can show him his death if he looks into her eyes. He chooses to look, saying that if he knows when he is supposed to die, then until that happens, he can't die. That information in a PCs hands could be problematic.
Otherwise, I'm jealous and I hope your game plays out brilliantly.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 4, 2013 23:09:55 GMT -8
After reading everyone's comments, I've both changed my idea a little and realised that I didn't really explain myself clearly.
First, I agree that making a character's ultimate fate too specific is both incredibly railroady and sucks all the tension from events along the way to reaching that fate. That being said, I do like characters who, because they know certain particulars of their fate, hurl themselves into dangerous situations without so much as blinking because "Today is not my day to die." Those guys are cool. But that's usually because their fate is just vague enough for there to be some uncertainty about any event they take on. There's always a little wiggle room for them to suddenly realise, "Oh, snap. Turns out this is my day to die."
But I think I may have confused people with my single Norse warrior example. I'm not thinking about the characters specifically knowing their individual fates. I'm thinking more of the characters knowing the general results their actions will have. Think of the story of Tyr and Fenrir.
The Aesir and Vanir all knew that Fenrir was going to be a problem (the fact that they also knew Fenrir had to be kept alive so he would be present for Ragnarok is relevant, but a tangent), and so they tried binding him. They tricked him twice by having him test his mighty strength against the bindings. Both times he easily broke them. The third time, they tried to bind him with the dwarven-forged Gleipnir. Fearing trickery, Fenrir said he'd only be bound again if someone put their hand in his mouth as a display of good faith. The courageous Tyr stepped forward, and laid his right hand in the giant wolf's mouth. The gods bound Fenrir, Gleipnir held, and the monster bit off Tyr's hand.
My point is that Tyr knew what was going to happen. He knew Fenrir had to be bound, saw this was the only way to do it, and stepped forward, knowing what it would cost him.
So, rather than specifically dictate the fate of each player character, I'm intending to have their actions meet the prophesied signs of Ragnarok and see if they figure it out.
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Post by guitarspider on Dec 5, 2013 3:04:15 GMT -8
It can definitely work. I'm thinking of Polaris (if you're not familiar, check it out, sounds like it would be your thing HyveMynd) where all game you know you're going to die, the only question being how you get there and how you die. Interestingly knowing you're going to fail is not really part of the game feeling when you start playing. The feeling that this is going to go badly is slowly creeping in while playing as more things go awry. If I understand you correctly, that's exactly what you're looking to do: let them determine how they get there but have the general end be fixed. Should work for you then (always provided you believe your group is going to go along of course).
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 5, 2013 4:30:46 GMT -8
MacBeth Act 4: to not be slain except by he not of woman born. To be unvanquished until Great Birnam Wood should come to Dunstainaine Aaron
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Post by Arcona on Dec 5, 2013 8:20:48 GMT -8
Would you consider going backwards?
Meaning...
Opening scene of the game is an epic battle scene (or whatever you plan for Ragnarok). Despite their efforts the scene ends with them dieing...
And you tell them then...
You wake up with cold sweat and look around to find yourself wherever you were. This dream was so.... so life like and it felt more than a dream... more like a glimpse of the future...
Or something to that effect.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 8, 2013 20:30:40 GMT -8
Starting with the final scene and then jumping back in time is awesome. But it's not really what I'm going for here. Doing that tells both the players and the characters what's going to happen (unless fate is changeable, which it might not be). What I want to do is have only the players suspect something is up. The characters won't know.
To help people understand what I mean, I'll reference a game we played a while back. Lyal ran a 1960's noir detective game using New World of Darkness for Kobe Chris and I. Our characters (who had no connection to each other) were blackmailed by the mob into ruining the political career of then Senator John F. Kennedy during the 1960 Democratic National Convention in LA. Kobe Chris's PC was a Jewish tabloid reporter, and my PC was a closeted homosexual actor. The plan was to hire an actress to seduce Kennedy, get him upstairs in a hotel room (where we'd be waiting) and have him pass out. Then we'd swap the girl with an African American woman, snap pictures of Kennedy, and publish them in the tabloids. This being the 1960's his career would be ruined.
After laying the initial ground work, the mob informed us we had a partner "to make sure things went as planned" (meaning we'd be whacked if we did anything stupid). We met our contact who, only introduced himself as "Lee". As players, both Kobe Chris and I went "Oh holy fuck. This guy is Lee Harvey Oswald." and, naturally didn't trust him. But our characters had no reason not to trust him, as he hadn't done anything weird yet. We were conflicted. We tried not to meta game, but at the same time it was hard to have our characters act as if they were completely oblivious.
After the game, Lyal told us that he had intentionally done that. He was planning for us, as players, to realise who Lee was and was using that to give out characters a feeling of "wrongness" about this guy. Rather than telling us "this guy seems 'off' but you can't put your finger on why" he intentionally set up a situation where the players knew something the characters didn't to simulate that feeling. I thought it was brilliant.
I'm trying to do something similar. I want the players to realise "Oh, this is Ragnarok" after a certain point, but I will not telegraph that to the characters.
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