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Post by ericfromnj on Mar 7, 2014 20:54:04 GMT -8
OK, so after reading through these rules all I got to say about L5R is - it's pretty damn awesome looking.
Thanks to my players being suddenly predictable (I don't get it but I will not question it), I have some spare game prep time to mess around with the campaign that will come after.
I want it so bad to be L5R.
Now, I get the basic structure of how the clans are set up and all f that, but how does this effect a city at all? How is a city run, especially in a contested area even in a relative time of peace.
I am looking at the 3 sides river area and thinking of either setting up a Lion providence near there or even just dropping my own city that could be a contested area right there.
However, I am not even sure how a city is run when not a direct imperial holding.
any thoughts?
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Mar 8, 2014 0:14:09 GMT -8
I'm not an expert on Rokugan, but I do know a bit about feudal geography. Of course the great thing about setting up your own city, is it can be run any way you want it. I do have the Second City box set, so I'll look into that in a while. You might also want to search for an old copy of City of Lies.
Anyhow, I like your location, reminds me of Vienna. Most non-imperial cities grow into being on trade. And most in the real world feudal eras grew on the back of a textile trade (wool, cotton, linen and silk). Textiles don't get much love in RPG settings, but in the real world, they were a commodity that produced value (riches) at every stage of production. So cities could grow on simply trading the raw material (eg fleeces), or spun thread, or dying, or weaving, or (but rarely) a combination of two or more adjacent processes.
Now, noble types, or Samurai in Rokugan, are all about Land, so would start off only being interested in the textile trade at either end (producing raw material and buying lovely clothes). This left the development of process, and trade to the middle classes, the merchants etc. which meant that most of these secondary cities were run by those trade guilds, appointing mayors in something approaching democratic, or technocratic politics.
Of course once a town is attracting a vibrant trade in one commodity, people start realizing there are opportunities to trade in other commodities too, so the place becomes a market town, at least trading local goods. The town I live in was kicked off by the wool trade, but then became a big hop market too. And then became a market town. That's where it stayed, bit other market towns find themselves getting into processing and other services too. Which is how another wool market at Norwich, became the richest city in England in the Middle Ages. Of course, as the trade grows other guilds fight for position in civic politics and the original trade becomes less important, though still rich and powerful.
But after the development of the city, the vested establishment will want a piece of the action, and the nobility (or samurai classes) start taking more of an interest in running it directly. In Europe, they excercised this power through the church mainly, but in Rokugan, church and state are more separate. So it would be those clans with trading families, Crab, Mantis, etc who'd get a toe-hold in first.
Of of course, the wealthy merchant families would look to buy their way into the nobility. By marriage, or by loaning money to princes fighting wars. So that's another way you might get a number of clans involved.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Mar 8, 2014 4:19:18 GMT -8
Right, I've had a look at second city, and there's not much there of use I think to you. It's very much a planned "new build" imperial city, with an imperial district, military district, temple district, merchant district, artisan district, and peasant district. But then I though about another trade, and a quick scan through the L5R googles suggests it's not one that's been given my thought in canon, so ripe for your imagination. Paper, So much of it used, so crucial to game play, with messages, poems, pillow books, etc. and of course walls! Where does it all come from? YOUR city. I googled this about real world WashiSo imagine this, your village is on the route between the Capital and Rokugan's primary Gampi farming region. It becomes a useful place for Gampi farmers to bring their bushels of bark to sell to merchants, who take it on to the capital's paper-making families. The Gampi market remains, close to the centre of the city. Then some bright spark thinks about that river, providing water and power for a sort of fulling mill, to mash the Gampi bark and sell on value-added paper to the capital. The word begins to read that the best paper is produced from your town. So there's a paper making quarter by the river side. Some religious faction, heavily into writing prayers, sets up a monastery nearby. Kosovo and Mitsumata traders start bringing their bark to the town, where they can get a better price for it than their local markets. A new bark market is set up, to trade these inferior barks. And the Gampi guild finds a rival faction forming around the New bark market. The paper-makers guild is happy to have the new market on hand though. The paper produced from this bark, has less of a margin on it, but a massively larger market, and your city's produce starts to be used all over the empire. A thriving community needs a rice market, and a fish market too. And streets named after these commodities appear. The Mantis sees the population of wealthy merchants as a new market for their silks. And may be the first Samurai family to set up a compound on the edge of the merchant quarter. The route between that and the city centre becomes know as silk street. Somebody sees another way to add value to the paper and sets up a printers, using inks made with the coloured minerals that the Mantis can also provide. And soon there is printing and book-binding quarter. Did you say it was on Lion land? Now it's making serious money, the taxes they've levied based on what the land would provide through rice seem too small. They send a vassal family to set up a compound to assess and collect a bigger cut of the various trades' profits. That call the Daimo of this family "governor" but the various merchant guilds are the real power, and to show it, the wealthiest families sponsor the building of a guildhall, an extravagant paper palace. And some of those wealthy families want in on the clan system, can they woo the Lions into a beneficial marriage, or maybe persuade one of the more open clans like the Unicorn to accept them as a vassal family, which is sure to wind the Lion up! Other families are happy with their merchant status, but exercise their power in more subtle ways. Those overspending imperial familes often need a loan for example. And who let the Kolat in?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 4:24:37 GMT -8
As Fredrix said a lot of the cities will have developed based on a trade but once they've gotten to the size of a full city then I would expect the samurai to have become fully entrenched within the system of governance and thus nearby Clans will have their own vested interest. Truly unaligned cities would, therefore be quite rare, my impression of unclaimed territories from the various books is generally that they're generally unclaimed because there are few settlements or resources.
The main ways I could see unaligned cities arising without the presence of an Imperial governor are: 1. A ronin lord has displaced the previous ruler. Likely to be very rare and unless the ronin proves to be an exceedingly good leader the original clan will quickly decide to retake the city. Most likely to occur on the edge of the Empire. 2. Crossroad cities positioned at the edge of borders between two or more provinces. Such cities could act as trade hubs and rather than having a single governor daimyo's from each clan could be present and continually trying to gain political control. 3. The entire province is disputed. The Naishou Province supplement is a good example of this, where the previous governor had died without leaving a clear heir and suddenly multiple clans are trying to claim the region.
In terms of how cities are set up I tend to class the districts into samurai, merchant and peasant. Samurai districts are a mix of stately homes (for the most important), quarters for the rest of the samurai, noble entertainment (kabuki theatres etc), garrisons and finally the imperial / local bureaucracy (which takes up a surprisingly large amount of space). Merchant districts are predominantly business orientated with associated warehouses, craftsmen and the houses of the middle class (business managing peasants) then finally the peasant districts house the lowly workers and craftsmen producing items for them.
In each case I would expect the controlling Clan to represent the majority of the population but in each section I would expect to find representatives of other Clans. Specialist Clan merchants would be present in each city, for example Mantis sailors in a Crane city by the sea. Each would bring their own peasants with them while Clan Samurai would be present to oversee their activities.
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Post by ericfromnj on Mar 30, 2014 13:17:06 GMT -8
I am trying to think of what the intrigue would be in a disputed area, and how such a settlement could change hands between the Lion, the Crane, and the Scorpion.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 31, 2014 4:28:53 GMT -8
I am trying to think of what the intrigue would be in a disputed area, and how such a settlement could change hands between the Lion, the Crane, and the Scorpion. Easy, make it a trade hub for grain. The Lion will want it for more territory and to feed their armies. The Crane will want it because it exists and to keep it out of the hands of the Scorpion or Lion. The Scorpion will want it to use it to their advantage and to keep it out of the hands of the Crane or Lion. I'd start it off in the hands of the Lion, I'd set it up that they recently took it militarily. Then spend the rest of the campaign having the Crane and Scorpion fighting it out in court to give themselves control. In certain time periods the Lion were constantly taking land from the Crane by force, you could have this be another such case.
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Post by The Northman on Apr 2, 2014 17:00:45 GMT -8
And then put a minor clan in charge of it, so none of them can just take it. Or better yet, a ronin family, so enticing them with fealty is an option, too.
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Post by SirGuido on Apr 3, 2014 4:31:22 GMT -8
And then put a minor clan in charge of it, so none of them can just take it. Or better yet, a ronin family, so enticing them with fealty is an option, too. I was thinking go with an Imperial as the governor of the city, but yeah a ronin or minor clan works since they can't declare war on a minor clan.
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Post by ayslyn on Apr 3, 2014 10:49:18 GMT -8
And then put a minor clan in charge of it, so none of them can just take it. Or better yet, a ronin family, so enticing them with fealty is an option, too. I was thinking go with an Imperial as the governor of the city, but yeah a ronin or minor clan works since they can't declare war on a minor clan. Ask the Dragonfly how well that works... ^.^
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Post by ericfromnj on Apr 3, 2014 16:06:17 GMT -8
OK, fill me in on what the heck you guys are talking about?
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Post by The Northman on Apr 3, 2014 17:17:59 GMT -8
By putting the town under the control of a small family or minor clan who isn't loyal to any of the Great Clans, you set up a situation where the Emperor has granted official political control to a group outside the power players vying for its resources. There are Imperial families, who don't have a 'clan,' per say, but are distant relatives of the Emperor, Ronin families, who are the descendants of a ronin who won enough renown that they were basically 'landed,' to use the Western term, or the minor clans which are usually comprised of one or two families much smaller and less powerful than the Lion, Crane, etc.
It's not a guarantee against military actions, but it's a big no-no to go against the Emperor and resort to that sort of blunt force. If you're looking to make the game focus on more of a cold war, with political intrigue and suspense as opposed to military campaigning, setting something up like that could help you steer it in that direction.
To Ayslyn's point, the Dragonfly were a minor clan in service to the Dragon as gatekeepers and emissaries who were temporarily wiped out by the Lion. As I said, it's not a guarantee of safety, but you're asking for a swat from the throne if you go too far.
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Post by SirGuido on Apr 4, 2014 4:23:16 GMT -8
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