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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 16:14:59 GMT -8
My next campaign will probably, for old-times' sake, will be pathfinder! It will be set in planescape (sigil mostly), with the addition of a few rare firearms. One of my players will want to play a gunslinger (advanced player's handbook) and I need some solid and fun rules for them. I have caught a glimpse at a couple of firearms rules in pathfinder (inner world, and pathfinder campaign), and I am a bit underwhelmed. Their damage is really low, 1d6 for pistol (x3 or x4 crit), with optional rule for exploding damage dice (on max result rerol and add) and misfire on 1-2 natural roll. Also at point-blank range they roll vs touch AC not normal AC and it needs a move action to reload.
Now first of all, 1d6 damage, even with explosion, is too low, and the touch attack rule is just boring; touch attacks make sense only for casters with low attack scores, give that weapon to the hands of a high BAB class with to-hit feats and it becomes a weak magic missile that can crit, trivializing the D20 attack roll and making it just a routine, since even a low level warrior-type can hit almost anything even with a roll of 2. So the player, whose whole class is based around firing a gun, will probably suicide the character from boredom after the first combat: "I roll, I hit, I do a small scrach, I reload." Rinse and repeat...
At least at 5th level the Gunslinger gets to add his Dex. bonus to the damage but it still is not enough, especially when the ranger will do the same damage AND get extra attacks with his bow (no reload).
Any ideas on how to make interesting firearms for a D20 game?
My idea for a pistol is: 2d4 damage (or 2d6), each die exploding on max roll, 18-20/x2 crit, reload as move, misfire as normal, no touch attack silliness (+something cool that I haven't thought of yet).
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Post by fray on Feb 14, 2012 22:10:25 GMT -8
Before you start changing the rules... I have a gunslinger in my game. I thought theywere 'blah' but then I let it go a saw what happened. Their strengthis in their feats and abilities. The gunslinger in my game turned into a major ass kicked. She ended up dealing great damage. It was consistently above average. She wasn't overpowered, the guns jammed at bad times which kept things interesting.
Let it play as is before changing things.
Just my 2 scents.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 15, 2012 2:04:06 GMT -8
fray kind of beat me to it, but I'll try to help you out with a few suggestions anyway. Bear in mind though that a) it's been a while since I played in a 3.x game and I've only browsed through the Pathfinder rulebook and b) I lean more towards narrative than crunchy systems now. So it'd probably be best to take all of this with a grain of salt.
First, I would find out why the player wants to be a gunslinger. What I mean is, are they interested in it's narrative or mechanical aspects? Did they see the the class while flipping through the Advanced Player's Handbook and say "Look at all these bad ass Feats, stunts, and skills I get!" Or are they simply envisioning their character as a Clint Eastwood inspired brooding lone gunman type and don't really care about mechanics?
If the player wants to be a gunslinger in flavor only, then you could just re-skin something else that works better mechanically. Is there a reason why the "gun" couldn't really just be a re-skinned crossbow or magic wand? Couldn't the character actually be a sorcerer or some other spell casting class that gets tweaked flavor wise so that their ranged spells become gunfire? Just because spells and guns might have a certain fluff in the Pathfinder universe doesn't mean they have to function that way in your game. Why make more work for yourself than you have to if the player only wants to feel like a gunslinger?
If the player does want to be a gunslinger mechanically and likes the existing class, then do they know that you feel the firearm rules are underpowered? Have you discussed this with him/her? They may actually be fine with the rules as they are now, in which case, like fray, I would suggest just leaving them alone.
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Post by ironnikki on Feb 15, 2012 8:49:15 GMT -8
I've been running a PF game with a gunslinger who's currently at 10th level. I had never played with a gunslinger before, so we just played with the rules as written. He's been able to do very good damage, and has quite a bit of interesting utility as well. Echoing the others, give it a few tries with the current rules, and see how you guys feel about it. There's always time later for your PC to find an unusual gun later in the game that happens to bend the rules as you see fit.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 16, 2012 9:58:59 GMT -8
I played a dwarf gunslinger in a game for several months and LOVED the class. Lots of fun and they get brownie points for doing stupidly brave crap. Very much fun and very effective.
JiB
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2012 6:41:14 GMT -8
Interesting, so how is the touch attack mechanic in action, I would expect it to make attacking somewhat of a chore since most of the opponents you can miss only on a natural 1, even if they greatly outlevel you. As for the class, it seems great fun to me too.
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Post by muntjack on Feb 26, 2012 14:10:34 GMT -8
I wasn't really a fan at all of the Gunslinger class at first. The group I was playing with on Monday nights had a character that was one, and it seemed very overpowered. Then after I read the rules, I realized they weren't playing it right with the rules for using a firearm. I've never been a huge fan of using guns in fantasy settings, but I think if you make sure to follow the rules right it shouldn't be TOO overpowering. Also, bullets should probably be more expensive to procure than arrows. At least I would think.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 26, 2012 20:49:46 GMT -8
I wasn't really a fan at all of the Gunslinger class at first. The group I was playing with on Monday nights had a character that was one, and it seemed very overpowered. Then after I read the rules, I realized they weren't playing it right with the rules for using a firearm. I've never been a huge fan of using guns in fantasy settings, but I think if you make sure to follow the rules right it shouldn't be TOO overpowering. Also, bullets should probably be more expensive to procure than arrows. At least I would think. I found it to be very balanced and fun to play. They nerfed it down a little bit after the testing period so it's a little different in the combat guide than it was when I did it. Cheers, JiB
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 1:05:12 GMT -8
*snip* Also, bullets should probably be more expensive to procure than arrows. At least I would think. Well considering arrows have a chance for recovery after combat with misses, and bullets do not that would be crippling to the gunslinger it should be the reverse.
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maxinstuff
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Firearms
Feb 4, 2014 19:02:13 GMT -8
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Post by maxinstuff on Feb 4, 2014 19:02:13 GMT -8
*snip* Also, bullets should probably be more expensive to procure than arrows. At least I would think. Well considering arrows have a chance for recovery after combat with misses, and bullets do not that would be crippling to the gunslinger it should be the reverse. Not that realism really matters here - but the economics of firearms were a contributing factor to them basically replacing the bow. It is a lot more labour intensive fletching arrows than to just pour a fuck-ton of lead ball and mix loads of black powder. Thus, regardless of damage, game balance etc. It makes sense for arrows to be more expensive than bullets. *ducks*
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Post by Arcona on Feb 18, 2014 12:46:20 GMT -8
Also you needed to seriously train a longbow man to actually use a longbow to its normal effect (which you also dont get in DnD as longbows dont bypass armor) as opposed to the point and click essence of a gun.
As for gunslinger... when I first read it, it seemed a bit weak. But if you think about it you dont do alot of damage but you do what you do consistently... as opposed to all the people missing all the time and doing zero. So on higher levels when only the 1st attack of the pure fighter will hit due to Uber high ACs you will still be able to hit consistently and do what you need to do.
I do agree that firearm damage seems a bit low and you could beef it up -slightly- or make the crit range a bit better...
BUT what would make the class shine (not sure if its possible already) is to allow for the rapid reload feat as well as the equivalent of power attack to it. Maybe the power attack thing could be allowed on higher levels (as early on its pretty powerful given that as you said you never miss). In the end the versatility/utility of the gunslinger scales but his damage does not so that is something to consider.
Lastly... I gave our gunslinger the equivalent of an Assassins death attack. I know they have it at level 19 but by that time NOTHING fails a fortitude save... not even a Wizard... so we agreed that heck... its a gun... if you aim for 3 rounds uninterrupted and the opponent is unaware you can basically snipe-kill. Maybe powerful but unless they also invest in some stealthyness its not that useful.
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