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2d10
Apr 25, 2014 18:47:48 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 18:47:48 GMT -8
I have been wanting to run a d20 system with 2d10 for a number of years now. As It has long bothered me that it is just as likely that you roll a 20 as a 5.
From what little math I know (design major in college) the 2d10 will make critical success something special and average performance easily defined. Therefore I can plan encounters with greater certainty that my PCs will hit.
I can't try this right now cause I have a group of 5 brand new gamers and the GM's theatre major wife...... Well my wife with a degree in stage management. I don't think I should experiment on a group of gamers on thier maiden voyage.
What do y'all think?
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2d10
Apr 25, 2014 19:15:04 GMT -8
Post by The Northman on Apr 25, 2014 19:15:04 GMT -8
A lot of the mechanics are counting on fairly common crits, especially in higher level encounters. You're also hurting martial characters a lot more than anyone else.
I wholly support the idea from the "Nat 20 always hits," perspective. The idea that there's a 5% chance of success no matter how disparate the combatants has always bothered me. Similarly, the fumble on a Nat 1, though not official, drives me insane and ruins a lot of immersion for me. For actual 'crits' though, you may want to convert the percentages appropriately so you don't nerf fighters and a few others into the ground.
EDIT: Brain-farted there and slipped into percentile thinking instead of 2d10
Otherwise I don't think it makes the game any harder to learn than just rolling 1d20.
All that being said...there's something really special about that 20, realism be damned. There are also a few systems (Dragon Age comes to mind) that use things like 3d6 to create a better curve. It might be better to just run a different system.
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christheabject
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Currently Running: Uncharted Worlds
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Post by christheabject on Apr 25, 2014 20:42:20 GMT -8
I have been thinking on using 2d10 and think if you rolled doubles and hit you could got the crit instead of just double 0s. I'm tired and this sentence doesn't make sense to me, but I hope you get the idea.
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2d10
Apr 25, 2014 21:14:22 GMT -8
Post by The Northman on Apr 25, 2014 21:14:22 GMT -8
That still buggers the crit system. Between weapon qualities and feat trees, there are loads of ways to increase the critical range, and there doesn't seem to be a simple way of mimicking that with 2d10. At the same time, you're giving a boost to any magic or effect that requires a save, decreasing the chance to hit high AC opponents, and putting difficult skill challenges out of reach, as more difficult saving throws/target numbers become even harder to make when you flatten out the curve.
I suppose you could use them as d100's and just multiply all the appropriate numbers by 5, but at that point I revert to my advice on playing a different system if you want less influence from the randomizer. Otherwise, Pathfinder is already pretty darn balanced by CR and class mechanics when it comes to planning encounters, so I don't know if it's worth all the work.
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Post by Kainguru on Apr 25, 2014 23:38:26 GMT -8
No. Just no. You're fucking with the probability as determined by the game mechanic - if your rolls become 'more average' isn't applicable as the probability of success or failure is determined by the mechanic not the dice ie: target number vis a vis DL and modifiers. Once you alter the dice you alter the impact of the mechanic. Eg: shifting a DL on a linear dice model by 2 has less impact than shifting the DL by 2 in a bell curve. All the modifiers built into the system get badly skewed with unintended consequences. I've seen a GM used to d20 shift armour up by 2 in Iron Kingdoms ( a 2d6 game) to tweak a challenge and was shocked when it nearly turned into a TPK - because that small tweak in d20 was a massive shift in Iron Kingdoms because of the relationship between the dice and the mechanic TOGETHER in determining the the ACTUAL probability. ie: 2d10 Target Number 10 Probability of success is : 55% +1 TN it shifts to 64% (+9% to probability) +2 TN it only shifts to 72% (+8% to probability) and so on . . . 1d20 TN 10 Success = 50% +1 TN = 55% +2 TN = 60% and so on. See the difference in progression? And the unintended consequence of applying the modifiers built into a mechanic based on one distribution to an different type of distribution. However - final probability remains what it is, a straight percentage chance of success determined by the TOTAL mechanic. If critical successes are the issue you simply make a natural 20 an opportunity to crit (RAW) by making another roll to determine success. This massively reduces the final probability for a crit from 5% to, more often than not, less than 1%. Aaron
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2d10
Apr 26, 2014 3:39:24 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 3:39:24 GMT -8
"Apr 25, 2014 23:38:26 GMT -8 Kainguru said: See the difference in progression? And the unintended consequence of applying the modifiers built into a mechanic based on one distribution to an different type of distribution."
And that is why I asked. I do not have enough of the maths to have a good idea of what would happen; and I am well aware of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
"Apr 25, 2014 23:38:26 GMT -8 Kainguru said
If critical successes are the issue you simply make a natural 20 an opportunity to crit (RAW) by making another roll to determine success. This massively reduces the final probability for a crit from 5% to, more often than not, less than 1%."
That is not really my issue but rather the PC that has the skill levels to succeed but the player rolls a string of 2's and 3's. The bell curve would make this less likely.
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Post by Kainguru on Apr 26, 2014 4:03:52 GMT -8
Ahh, then that's the very nature of probability - each die roll is an independent event. The result of one can never influence the other - the chance of success is unchanged. So a player has the same chance of rolling low in succession for each roll, our brains predisposition towards pattern recognition means we believe that a series of low rolls 'shouldn't happen' : because we perceive a pattern that doesn't actually exist, it's random/chance. 2d10 will skew the result to the middle - whether that succeeds depends on the mechanic setting the TN. So yes you get more average results. UNLESS YOUR NAME IS STORK!!! In which case the devil will always vomit on the eiderdown of good fortune in PC life. You could steal the D&DNext advantage/disadvantage mechanic. It's an elegant tweak that doesn't screw with the system per se and is easily incorporated into any edition of D20. Aaron
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2d10
Apr 26, 2014 5:23:31 GMT -8
Post by Houndin on Apr 26, 2014 5:23:31 GMT -8
You could steal the D&DNext advantage/disadvantage mechanic. It's an elegant tweak that doesn't screw with the system per se and is easily incorporated into any edition of D20. Aaron That's what I've done in my OSR games. I use narrative as opposed to mechanics to determine adv/dis. It seems to work very well and the players start leaning more towards the creative side in action description hoping for an adv.
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2d10
Apr 26, 2014 6:47:22 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 6:47:22 GMT -8
You could steal the D&DNext advantage/disadvantage mechanic. It's an elegant tweak that doesn't screw with the system per se and is easily incorporated into any edition of D20. INTERSTING! I have not been paying attention to DnD Next for vindictive reasons but I might check that out. Back in the time of 3e I had cobbled together advantages and disadvantages to add flavor and make levels 1-3 a little less mundane. I really like the concept as it used in other games.
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D.T. Pints
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2d10
Apr 26, 2014 7:02:57 GMT -8
Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 26, 2014 7:02:57 GMT -8
The other thing you can try @killer is what I do in my Pathfinder games that is basically populated with individuals that have tested positive for the Stork virus...I stole Savage Worlds bennies and allow rerolls. But those rerolls come at price. I have an Obsidian Portal page that the players have to contribute to in order to get the aforementioned rerolls. The Awakening of the Desert KingThere have been numerous potential trainwrecks averted by the ability to reroll a bad die roll. Some might say that this is creating too softball a game, but in return I get players who are invested in the story and who have had moments of EPIC heroics. (which is what they want) But there have certainly been numerous instances of "footballs being fucked by monkeys" when the rerolls run out. I also do have a critical fail mechanic that is the inverse of the critical hit. On a 1 reroll and if a miss than "bad things are done". But this has only happened twice and in the end wasn't that bad...fumbles, getting nicked by your own sword. Unlike Kainguru who apparently has maimed a character or two based on a failure. But that is OSR Temple of Elemental Evil we are talking about and that shit is a meat grinder.
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Post by Kainguru on Apr 26, 2014 7:29:19 GMT -8
You could steal the D&DNext advantage/disadvantage mechanic. It's an elegant tweak that doesn't screw with the system per se and is easily incorporated into any edition of D20. INTERSTING! I have not been paying attention to DnD Next for vindictive reasons but I might check that out. Back in the time of 3e I had cobbled together advantages and disadvantages to add flavor and make levels 1-3 a little less mundane. I really like the concept as it used in other games. Oh ah. It's a dice mechanic. If the DM sees a situation, narrative exposition, as being either advantageous or disadvantageous to the PC then advantage/disadvantage can be declared. Basically the player rolls the required dice for a given check twice : advantage = select highest result, disadvantage = lowest result. It encourages creative thinking and narration to try an get that advantage OR it can let the DM be a real TPKing douchebag by setting up a narrative disadvantage (especially if ones well crafted scene has failed to be the challenge one hoped). It lets the players and DM account for those little quirky things that should count but mechanically don't (like shoving a bag of devouring over a demonesses head whilst she is engaged in psionic combat with another PC ) Aaron
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2d10
Apr 26, 2014 15:35:06 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 15:35:06 GMT -8
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2d10
Apr 26, 2014 15:39:30 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 15:39:30 GMT -8
I meant to quote "it's a dice mechanic". This board doesn't like my iPad 1.
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Post by Kainguru on Apr 27, 2014 0:32:08 GMT -8
I meant to quote "it's a dice mechanic". This board doesn't like my iPad 1. Try using an iPhone - just as bad if not worse. What I meant was it's a mechanic or tweak that complements the established dice mechanic of, in this case, D20. This, as opposed to it being a feat/skill/character development/whatever is best used to describe it mechanic of disads (cf GURPS, SW etc) that it has been confused with. Aaron
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Post by Houndin on Apr 27, 2014 2:32:09 GMT -8
I meant to quote "it's a dice mechanic". This board doesn't like my iPad 1. Try using an iPhone - just as bad if not worse. What I meant was it's a mechanic or tweak that complements the established dice mechanic of, in this case, D20. This, as opposed to it being a feat/skill/character development/whatever is best used to describe it mechanic of disads (cf GURPS, SW etc) that it has been confused with. Aaron Android for the win! And yes, they used a stupid name for the mechanic that was already in use in the industry for something else. Bear in mind they're missing the merit/flaw - ad/disad - edge..... Flavor mechanic from their game entirely. Though I guess 'feats' could be considered a form of 'edges' But back to the proper topic, the 2+d20 and 2-d20 mechanic is a lot of fun for players and GM. The thing is you're going to get some players who try to game it by being over the top. You'll need to use some gm restraint unless you want it becoming cheapened and every attack having 'the advantage'. Personally I reserve it for extra special situations and places where the narrative would dictate that one side is in fact at a distinct advantage. Sent from my Nexus 7 using proboards
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