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Post by stork on Jun 22, 2014 15:10:40 GMT -8
As you may know I'm am playing a Sugenga this time around, and I have a few questions regarding magic. Specifically one at the moment, but I'm sure Ill have more as play goes on.
I get, that you start out with a finite number of spells depending on your ring and void.
I also know that spell costs depend on the rank of the spells and come from a point pool.
I also know you can spend XP to memorize spells. Which begs the question, if I "Unmemorize" a spell, do I get the XP back?
But my main question is, after that, can you pick up as many scrolls, and research as many spells as you want? Knowing your limited by the spell point pool, you can only cast until it's empty. I'm wondering if you could conceivably have all the spells, but only be able to cast a few a day?
Also, what are ways Sugenga can find new spells? Research takes a long period of uninterrupted time, that conceivably has to happen between campaigns, or if your in one place for a while. Teaching is the same, and you need a master to learn from.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jun 23, 2014 4:29:50 GMT -8
The way I do it, you can pick up scrolls wherever you go as long as you do the right negotiating. In order to figure out how the spell works I make the shugenja copy the spell using a spellcraft roll tied to whatever the element of the spell is with a TN equal to 10 times the spell's mastery level. I give them a Free Raise if its a spell of their affinity element. If they succeed they correctly copy the spell and understand how it works and can now cast it. If they fail they need to try again tomorrow until they figure it out and get it right.
Edit: I don't believe there is any concrete system in the books, and for me this makes Spellcraft actually matter to a shugenja by RAW.
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Post by joecrak on Jun 23, 2014 6:26:54 GMT -8
As you may know I'm am playing a Sugenga this time around, and I have a few questions regarding magic. Specifically one at the moment, but I'm sure Ill have more as play goes on. I get, that you start out with a finite number of spells depending on your ring and void. I also know that spell costs depend on the rank of the spells and come from a point pool. I also know you can spend XP to memorize spells. Which begs the question, if I "Unmemorize" a spell, do I get the XP back? But my main question is, after that, can you pick up as many scrolls, and research as many spells as you want? Knowing your limited by the spell point pool, you can only cast until it's empty. I'm wondering if you could conceivably have all the spells, but only be able to cast a few a day? Also, what are ways Sugenga can find new spells? Research takes a long period of uninterrupted time, that conceivably has to happen between campaigns, or if your in one place for a while. Teaching is the same, and you need a master to learn from. 1. So the amount of spells you can cast per day is limited by all of your rings. The amount of spells scrolls you start with is based upon the shugenja school you chose. 2. You can not "unmemorize" a spell. Memorization means you no longer carry around the scroll, you can cast the spell with out having to draw out he long scroll and read it. It also makes it easier to travel with less scrolls; from a realistic perspective. 3. You can carry as many scrolls as you wish, provided you have access tio the scrolls. Research RAW takes awhile like you said. Other RAW provide a shugenja with like 2 or 3 scrolls every new insight rank. As SirGuido said you can gain new scrolls through negotiation. And I think his copying scrolls is a neat idea. But one important thing to think of is that each clan writes their prayer scrolls in a different secret Cipher. So a Mantis shugenja should NOT be able to read a Crane shugenja's spell scrolls. If he was able to and it was found out: War is a likely possibility. 4. Finally, yes it's possible to know all the prayers, but be limited in how many you can cast. Though unless you have the Void advantage, you can't even learn those prayers
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Post by stork on Jun 23, 2014 8:43:54 GMT -8
So learning new spells is hard. And adding points into the point pool only happens as you go up in insight rank. While Bushi can improve and add skills, Sugenga are really stuck until they hoard enough xp to raise a stat or gain insight.
And learning new spells is dependent on finding, and translating rare valuable manuscripts. So advancement seems much slower for the Sugenga than a Bushi? Is this your experience?
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Post by SirGuido on Jun 23, 2014 9:07:18 GMT -8
Not at all, you can still advance by spending XP on rings and skills. When you increase in insight rank your school gifts you with new scrolls. You can get extra scrolls by beseeching/negotiating with another shugenja to write you a copy of their scroll in a non-ciphered way for you.
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Post by SirGuido on Jun 23, 2014 9:08:58 GMT -8
In point of fact, in my experience shugenja increase in insight rank much more quickly than bushi because their skills matter less. They don't need spellcraft very high if they aren't researching or anything so they don't need to raise it to a high level like a bushi will their weapon skill. All those points can now go into raising rings.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jun 23, 2014 13:24:38 GMT -8
I find it helps to remind Shugenja players that they are more like clerics. Shugenja are holy men and the spells are in fact prayers to the kami that entice them to carry out a specific action. The prayers are complicated, however, hence the use of scrolls and the XP cost in order to 'memorise' them.
Besides, bushi and courtiers just get a school technique when they achieve an insight rank; Shugenja get an extra rolled die for their spell-casting roll (school rank) and three spells from the new insight rank gifted from the shugenja's school (or appropriate substitute). You won't get left behind the other players in terms of effectiveness; in fact, as an earth Shugenja, you're the Inukai's most potent weapon and defence against the taint (yep, I went there)!
The other fine gents on this thread have pretty much covered everything else. The Book of Earth has a cracking chapter of earth magic in general and the Kitsune family in particular (page 63), but it sounds like you've already read it!
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Post by joecrak on Jun 24, 2014 4:04:32 GMT -8
Shugenja do usually rank up faster because of xp hoarding. But it is logical for them, because unlike a bushi or courtier, every single ring matters for a shugenja. Even if you can't learn avoid Spells, void dictates the base amount of raises you can make, and provides bonus spells/day that can be used for any element.
Plus the prayers Shugenja can do are incredibly powerful, and an Earth shugenja is incredibly durable.
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Post by SirGuido on Jun 24, 2014 4:24:42 GMT -8
Plus the prayers Shugenja can do are incredibly powerful, and an Earth shugenja is incredibly durable. This. Usually, despite not being incredibly martially inclined, an Earth shugenja is usually the last one standing at the end of a combat due to their enormous pot of wounds. Right now stork, you have twice as many wounds as most of those around you. Plus, a lot of the Earth spells help you with that durability aspect. Like Armor of the Earth, Armor of the Emperor, Be the Mountain, etc.
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Post by joecrak on Jun 24, 2014 5:31:40 GMT -8
Plus the prayers Shugenja can do are incredibly powerful, and an Earth shugenja is incredibly durable. This. Usually, despite not being incredibly martially inclined, an Earth shugenja is usually the last one standing at the end of a combat due to their enormous pot of wounds. Right now stork, you have twice as many wounds as most of those around you. Plus, a lot of the Earth spells help you with that durability aspect. Like Armor of the Earth, Armor of the Emperor, Be the Mountain, etc. All these spells us the attacks spells make an earth shugenja frightening. "Oh, they're a shadowlands creature? Jade strike!" "Oh a honorless bandit. Earth becomes Sky!" People think twice about messing with you when you throw boulders at them. Also one of the other cool flavor things abou being a shugenja, is the majority of humans in the world, revere what you can do. You are a vessel that can communicate with the gods and beseech their blessings. Many a campaign I was in any human enemies would not attack the shugenja without provocation. Crazy creatures and incredibly tainted folks however....
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Post by joecrak on Jun 25, 2014 3:46:15 GMT -8
Oh, stork one thing SirGuido and I forgot to mention is the Importune ability. It give a shugenja a chance to cast a spell he doesn't know by asking the kami for permission. Granted it is not easy, and if they allow it, you are on an hour time limit to cast the spell. But it can be a life saver.
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Post by grimm on Feb 2, 2015 14:57:44 GMT -8
It should also be pointed out that spells, in the L5R setting, are closely guarded Clan Secrets. This is one reason why each Shugenja is given such a small number of spells - they are essentially carrying a set of highly classified documents with them everywhere they go, which other Clans might well want to get their hands on.
(Canonically, all of the spells are also written in a secret cypher known only to people who have studied at the school where the scroll was written. This is poorly reflected in the game mechanics, however.)
Obviously, this makes the gaining of new (and readable) spell scrolls extremely difficult under normal circumstances, short of looting them off the corpse of someone from the same shugenja school. This is intentional - the Importune Ability allows a Shugenja to access most utility spells as needed, without the need for a scroll, so scrolls are only really critical in combat situations where casting speed is a serious issue. Limiting the number of Combat-relevant Spells that a shugenja has access to is important for keeping them balanced against other classes.
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