polarbruski
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Post by polarbruski on Jul 20, 2014 7:51:17 GMT -8
So I just started GMing and playing L5R for the first time after having been inspired to do so by the Happy Jack's actual play, and the first session was great. We're playing through the Topaz Tournament adventure to get the mechanics down, and to introduce two players new to tabletop RPGs.
Everyone had a bunch of fun, much revelry and drunkenness and RP was had, but due to technical difficulties and them splitting the party, we ran out of time, which may turn out to be a good thing.
We're finishing the tournament next Friday, we have the hunting competition and Iaijutsu competition left.
One of the new players really loves playing rogues and spies. I let him know he might not be able to do this easily in the main campaign we're running after this (though he could be a Courtier), but for the Tournament I wanted him to have fun, so I made him a Scorpion infiltrator that has been assigned to become a long-term sleeper cell in this group of Lion contestants. He really enjoyed the idea, though since he's trying to ingratiate himself with the Lion, this conflict didn't really come up during the first play session.
HOWEVER, during the Sumai contest, after pinning Takako, (A Phoenix Bushi with a scorpion mother who died when she was young), he ripped off her mask (which was her dead mother's) in order to humiliate her. Also she thought it was a matter of honor, none of the crane judges agreed (because they're Crane, so screw anything wearing a mask). She stalked off angrily and let him know he was without honor, and would live to regret this.
I will note that I made clear to the PC before he did this that she had already lost, the judges had tapped her out, and the mask clearly had not come off during the fight. He decided to take it off anyways.
However, the topic has not come up again, and I think he and possibly the rest of the party have dismissed it.
Thus leading to my conundrum. What does he deserve? What does she do?
My initial ideas centered around direct retribution, with her trying to poison his food (already a minor plot line in the adventure for her), or sabotage his duel (incredibly difficult) etc. Then I remembered, HE'S A SCORPION! I presumed she was hanging around with the other scorpion and bitching about how dishonorable the Lion were, when one of them mentions he went to school with a guy who looks exactly like this PC. She connects the dots, and goes to blackmail him.
However, after discussing this with my wife for awhile, we came up with what might be an even better outcome (for the story). She goes to the highest ranking scorpion accompanying the young Samurai, who has been informed of PC's mission to infiltrate. He realizes PC has vastly overstepped his boundaries, and will visit him in the night, proceed the scare the living CRAP out of him, and tell him exactly how he is going to rig the hunting contest and throw the duel so that Takako succeeds.
Takako however, doesn't think this is enough, because he will not be publicly humiliated. She still holds the trump card of revealing his identity, although she realizes she cannot do that, because to reveal a mission in progress would be very dishonorable. However, she's betting he might not realize she knows that, or he might think she's angry enough to ignore it, so she is going to blackmail him to publicly humiliate himself or she will reveal him.
I don't know how he will respond to this, but possibilities are accepting it in order to save his long-term mission, calling her bluff (in which case she will not reveal him, but may try to trick him into something dishonorable and foolish), or trying to eliminate her (he IS a scorpion after all).
Does this make sense? Does anyone has suggestions on how to improve it?
Specifically, what can she ask him to do that will be humiliating, and/or how can she trick him into humiliation if he refuses?
If anything I said didn't make sense, let me know. I also wasn't sure whether to use names. NPC = Shiba Takako, PC = Hiroji Hosu.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 11:34:23 GMT -8
Regards your ideas - With the first one I would say that a Scorpion wouldn't give that sort of information away freely, all of the Clans are pretty secretive about their schools and a Scorpion would be even more so as they know about the existence of the infiltrators. Even if it was mentioned then I think it would be a big leap for her to make the connection to him being a Scorpion, even with Scorpion heritage it's unlikely she is even aware that infiltrators exist.
For the second idea again I think it wouldn't really work. If she went to the highest ranking Scorpion they would just laugh at her and deny any knowledge. They certainly wouldn't acknowledge the existence of a spy in the Lion to somebody who is not only from another clan but also still a child (remember the whole tournament is ultimately a coming of age ceremony). At worst they'd simply arrange to have her killed / discredited for posing a risk to Scorpion plans.
I'd also disagreed strenuously with this statement, a samurai pretending to be from another clan means they are lying about everything they hold true, which is extremely dishonourable so for Takako the most honourable thing would be to reveal their existence. Of course proving it is another matter.
If you're open to an alternate suggestion then how about this: Takako makes it clear how dishonourable she believes the (apparent) Lion to be and the Scorpion she has been hanging around make her an offer, that they will deal with him if she does something for them (placing her in their debt, something which is very Scorpion). The only reason they make the offer is because they don't know the PC is actually a Scorpion and believe him to be a Lion.
She agrees and the Scorpion start trying to poison, sabotage etc the PC, all in ways that can't be linked directly to the Scorpion but given his background he would make the connection. So now he has to deal with his own Clan attacking him while having to maintain his cover prevents him from being able to let them know his true loyalties.
Takako meanwhile is given a job by the Scorpion, something that would work against the other PCs, giving them a chance to get involved from the other side of things.
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polarbruski
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Post by polarbruski on Jul 20, 2014 12:19:12 GMT -8
Regards your ideas - With the first one I would say that a Scorpion wouldn't give that sort of information away freely, all of the Clans are pretty secretive about their schools and a Scorpion would be even more so as they know about the existence of the infiltrators. Even if it was mentioned then I think it would be a big leap for her to make the connection to him being a Scorpion, even with Scorpion heritage it's unlikely she is even aware that infiltrators exist. Good point, I need to remember how stingy everyone is with information. I figured she's practically half scorpion from her description, but this is still a good point. Do Scorpion not care about each other much, or the dishonoring of their clan? (because that's what this was a Lion being "screw you" to a Scorpion because he could get away with it.) Hmmm, I guess that would be true, I figured she's so closely tied to the scorpions, and really wants to get in good with them that she wouldn't risk such a thing. I am definitely open to suggestions, that's why I posted! I do like this one because it'll result in the party being under attack from two different angles, in addition to still trying to solve the mystery of the tournament being sabotaged, and trying to win the tournament. They have been very good about playing in character, at least two of the more experienced players have figured out it can't be the scorpions sabotaging the tournament at this point, but their characters have not, so they've gone off at least one wild-goose chase, and the new guys are having to steer them back on to track. To then come under attack from actual Scorpions will throw that into confusion, and perhaps they'll believe all attacks are coming from the same source. The only downside to this is that I really wanted to blackmail the PC and let him make the decision on how to handle it. :-\ Thanks so much for the feedback, I appreciate it and look forward to any other ideas or comments.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jul 20, 2014 17:35:27 GMT -8
Ripping off a Scorpion's mask is... incredibly dishonorable especially from another Scorpion. I would have the Lion(nee Scorpion) lose a decent amount of honor for that. Like 3-4 points minimum. I also think it wouldn't be untoward for her to want revenge and basically seek to humiliate him the rest of the tournament in different sneaky underhanded Scorpion-ish ways.
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polarbruski
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Post by polarbruski on Jul 20, 2014 19:39:36 GMT -8
Ripping off a Scorpion's mask is... incredibly dishonorable especially from another Scorpion. I would have the Lion(nee Scorpion) lose a decent amount of honor for that. Like 3-4 points minimum. I also think it wouldn't be untoward for her to want revenge and basically seek to humiliate him the rest of the tournament in different sneaky underhanded Scorpion-ish ways. Yeah, I was trying to think about why he did it. It might be: A. Because he could and it seemed cool (new player syndrome) B. He's trying to ingratiate himself with the Lion's and thought this would be a good way to do it. I think getting Daimyos involved, while interesting, might be a bit odd. My wife came up with the idea that she fights him in a first blood duel for her honor (supervised by the Phoenix representatives) with a poisoned (slow-acting) blade. Either that, or preferably doing it in the Iaijutsu tournament, though I'm not sure she could get poison on the practice swords they're supposed to use for that. I also feel it might be too big of a change of pace to have them use real swords for the Iaijutsu tourney, but would that work if it was to first blood? Honestly, I would really enjoy a PC death, because it is a one-shot, and will give the PCs proper fear for the main campaign.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 0:09:22 GMT -8
This is probably one of those things that is open to interpretation but I generally take the view that samurai from mixed clan families are raised to be loyal to only a single clan. So in this case the PC has ripped a mask off of a phoenix not a scorpion. Still dishonourable but not as much as ripping it off of an actual scorpion.
Also given the PC is an actual scorpion he may take the view that as she is not a member of the clan she isn't worthy to wear the mask, hence why he ripped it off. That the lion get blamed is a bonus.
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Post by joecrak on Jul 21, 2014 16:33:59 GMT -8
This is probably one of those things that is open to interpretation but I generally take the view that samurai from mixed clan families are raised to be loyal to only a single clan. So in this case the PC has ripped a mask off of a phoenix not a scorpion. Still dishonourable but not as much as ripping it off of an actual scorpion. Also given the PC is an actual scorpion he may take the view that as she is not a member of the clan she isn't worthy to wear the mask, hence why he ripped it off. That the lion get blamed is a bonus. I agree with this completely. It doesn't matter if you are half scorpion by birth. They are a part of the Phoenix clan. And that mask is an insult to the Scorpion clan.
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polarbruski
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Post by polarbruski on Jul 21, 2014 20:41:23 GMT -8
Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have her take up her grievance with the Phoenix clan only, since it was definitely touching and stripping clothing from a Phoenix samurai outside the context of competition, and therefore at least a minor, probably major breach of etiquette.
This will likely lead to either a public apology by the PC, or a first blood duel between Takako and the PC. I'm considering having her poison her blade for this, since she is knowledge in such things, and there's enough fighting during the competition (jiujitsu, Weapons, and Iaijutsu) it might not be traceable back to her. He might be severely weakened by the time he faces her in the iaijutsu tournament at the end. (I would have her poison him there, but I don't think I can make the iaijutsu tournament to first blood, since in the setting they're supposed to use bokken.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jul 21, 2014 22:33:32 GMT -8
I agree with the view she is Phoenix Clan, however she is wearing her mother's mask to honour her (I assume). Therefore as soon as she is an adult, she should be challenging the Scorpion/Lion to a duel to defend her family honour. Regardless of her parentage, the Scorpion/Lion has insulted her and her ancestors. Not demanding a duel might result in even more loss of face to her personally and the Phoenix Clan in general. Of course, if the Phoenix bushi is feeling her Scorpion side, there is a hunting test in a forest to get through, and accidents happen all the time.........
That said, it was a really good way for the Scorpion to ingratiate himself with the Lion. Ripping the mask off an opponent is just the sort of thing a brash, overconfident Matsu. He may even privately be sorry for what he has done, but an Infiltrator won't let that get in the way of completing his mission. It's a shame they aren't related in some way.......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 22:48:34 GMT -8
Sounds like your PC just made himself either a sworn enemy or a kharmic nemesis.
Later one you can reveal that the Scorpion/Lion and the Pheonix/Scorpion are related by blood and destiny, preferably on the point of each others sword. Very tragic. Very samurai.
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grimm
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Post by grimm on Jan 31, 2015 5:23:08 GMT -8
That said, it was a really good way for the Scorpion to ingratiate himself with the Lion. Ripping the mask off an opponent is just the sort of thing a brash, overconfident Matsu. He may even privately be sorry for what he has done, but an Infiltrator won't let that get in the way of completing his mission. It's a shame they aren't related in some way....... I strongly disagree with this. The Lion clan are extremely honourable, pretty much to a fault. The very first person in line to chastise the Lion/Scorpion should probably have been the ranking Lion present. Dishonouring an opponent (especially a defeated opponent) is beneath the dignity of a Lion, even a brash Matsu. (Perhaps especially a Matsu. That's a school where the very CORE of it's mechanics are there to remind you that being Honourable at all times matters to this PC.) Dishonouring an opponent is something only a dishonourable Scorpion would stoop to doing. In truth, by snatching off the mask he showed himself not to have been raised a proper Lion, completely devoted to Bushido. The person he made look bad was mostly himself. (That said, yeah. That Phoenix is going to challenge him to a duel. And if she's smart, she's going to do it publically and in front a magistrate, so he has no excuse to delay without bringing shame on himself. He's a "Lion" after all - Lion's don't hesitate when their honour is questioned.)
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Mar 28, 2015 13:52:32 GMT -8
That said, it was a really good way for the Scorpion to ingratiate himself with the Lion. Ripping the mask off an opponent is just the sort of thing a brash, overconfident Matsu. He may even privately be sorry for what he has done, but an Infiltrator won't let that get in the way of completing his mission. It's a shame they aren't related in some way....... I strongly disagree with this. The Lion clan are extremely honourable, pretty much to a fault. The very first person in line to chastise the Lion/Scorpion should probably have been the ranking Lion present. Dishonouring an opponent (especially a defeated opponent) is beneath the dignity of a Lion, even a brash Matsu. (Perhaps especially a Matsu. That's a school where the very CORE of it's mechanics are there to remind you that being Honourable at all times matters to this PC.) Dishonouring an opponent is something only a dishonourable Scorpion would stoop to doing. In truth, by snatching off the mask he showed himself not to have been raised a proper Lion, completely devoted to Bushido. The person he made look bad was mostly himself. (That said, yeah. That Phoenix is going to challenge him to a duel. And if she's smart, she's going to do it publically and in front a magistrate, so he has no excuse to delay without bringing shame on himself. He's a "Lion" after all - Lion's don't hesitate when their honour is questioned.) I did say a Brash, Overconfident Matsu. It is called the Matsu Berserker school for a reason. While the Lion are all about Honour and Bushido, a lot of them could care two shits about a Scorpion, which is what someone wearing a Scorpion mask is showing the world. As far as the Lion are concerned, the Scorpion are beneath contempt because of who they are, and the Lion's opinion of the Phoenix isn't much better. Yes, there will be those among the Lion who frown upon such an act, but equally there will be those who enjoy seeing a purported Scorpion/Phoenix humbled. Of course, there will also be repercussions dependent on who else witnessed the act itself. Other Clans will have their own view on the validity of acting in such a way. However, if I was GM-ing, I'd look at how the Lion Daimyo in attendance will react, because that will play into the inevitable duel that should follow.
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grimm
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Post by grimm on Mar 31, 2015 14:53:44 GMT -8
Yes, it's a berzerker school. And the very FIRST rank of that school gives you a bonus based on your personal honour - the gauge of how well you adhere to Bushido in your daily life. Matsu aren't berzerk because they're crazy, out-of-control warriors. They simply disregard the idea that death is not a perfectly acceptable outcome of any fight they get into, and act accordingly. Their lack of fear in the face of death isn't crazy - it's predicated on the idea that they know the only way to get into Tengoku (Heaven) is a glorious death. Sure, the Lion hold the Scorpion in contempt. But that's because they would NEVER lower themselves to their level, which is what this PC has done. Because it's not about contempt, it's about the fact that Bushido demands respectful treatment of an opponent, regardless of personal feelings. The Lion are the one Clan, above all others, who place Bushido at the forefront both of their training and their daily life. Yes, the Lion look down on ALL of the other clans, to some degree. And that pride is based on the fact that they are the best samurai, because they place Bushido ahead of every other factor in their choices and their actions. Even with people they don't like. That Phoenix wears a mask to honour her ancestors. That respect is FUNDAMENTAL to the Lion, who reveres their ancestors more than any other. And while revering their Scorpion ancestors isn't something a Lion would want to do, showing disrespect for that is very un-Lion. Is this the act of a Brash, Overconfident Matsu? Sure. And some other Lion might approve, in their hearts. But again, it doesn't matter what they think - it only matters what Bushido says is right, and shaming a fallen opponent is NEVER in line with Bushido. They should chastise him based on that alone, whatever their private opinions happen to be. I think a lot of people underestimate how seriously the Lion take their honour. I feel the canon makes it pretty clear. www.kazenoshiro.com/2013/09/15/a-life-in-moments/
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Apr 1, 2015 1:01:16 GMT -8
Lions like to think they are honourable , but some samurai remember that it was a Lion conspiring with the Scorprion (and the Kolat) that dishonourably brought down the Hare clan (except in my version, wherein a lucky shot from a Mantis archer killed the Scorpion general, and saved Kyuden Usagi - leading to the Lion and Crane clans invading Scoprion holdings unde the Imperial banner to investigate their illegal war against the Hare)
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grimm
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Post by grimm on Apr 1, 2015 11:44:46 GMT -8
Oh, there have certainly been times when the Lion (as a whole, and in parts) fell under the sway of bad influences. This is true of every Clan (though the Lion less so than most). That shouldn't undercut the idea that the average Lion, on the average day, is as honourable a samurai as you will find in the Empire.
I would point to the Lion's participation in the Second Day of Thunder and the Rise (and redemption) of Oni no Okura as prime examples of what I'm talking about. Even when the Lion are at their worst, there are still many of them who are at their best.
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