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Post by yojimbohawkins on Apr 1, 2015 13:33:56 GMT -8
Oh, there have certainly been times when the Lion (as a whole, and in parts) fell under the sway of bad influences. This is true of every Clan (though the Lion less so than most). That shouldn't undercut the idea that the average Lion, on the average day, is as honourable a samurai as you will find in the Empire. I would point to the Lion's participation in the Second Day of Thunder and the Rise (and redemption) of Oni no Okura as prime examples of what I'm talking about. Even when the Lion are at their worst, there are still many of them who are at their best. Perhaps. I'm sure the other Clans would argue the point about the Lion's honour. But likewise, when the Lion are at their worst, some of them are at their worst. Just because the clan as a whole reveres Bushido doesn't mean they are perfect examples of it. You might as well say if all Lion are honourable, then all Crab are uncouth, all Mantis are pirates, all Unicorn are barbarians, and so on. Frankly, canon examples mean nothing. If you want to point to them that's fine, but pretty pointless for a role-playing game where everyone is playing in their own version of Rokugan. If you want to portray the Lion as perfectly honourable in every day life, good for you. I much prefer to see the Lion strive to adhere to Bushido, but sometimes fail and deal with the consequences accordingly. For me thatmakes for a much more interesting Lion PC.
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Post by The Northman on Apr 1, 2015 15:27:31 GMT -8
Unless you've overhauled the honor system or changed starting values for the schools, that part isn't all that open to interpretation. Bushido's rigidity is something that sometimes drives people away from the setting, but it's also sort of the point. It doesn't turn in and off, and it permeates every part of a samurai's life at all times. There's a mechanical effect on the game.
Other clans might take issue with their aggression, pride, or war mongering, but honor is simply what they do. They wrote the book on it.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Apr 2, 2015 12:38:41 GMT -8
Unless you've overhauled the honor system or changed starting values for the schools, that part isn't all that open to interpretation. Bushido's rigidity is something that sometimes drives people away from the setting, but it's also sort of the point. It doesn't turn in and off, and it permeates every part of a samurai's life at all times. There's a mechanical effect on the game. Other clans might take issue with their aggression, pride, or war mongering, but honor is simply what they do. They wrote the book on it. No, I haven't tinkered with the Honour system. I don't need to, and that's kind of what I'm driving at. Yes, Bushido is inflexible and that's the point. It's pretty impossible to perfectly adhere to all seven tenets of Bushido all the time, the Lion included. Most of the time it's a trade off. Yes, the Lion are honourable, but they are also bound by their duty. What if their Duty conflicts with their Honour? What if by compromising their Honour they could gain a political advantage for the Clan as a whole and they have a split second to decide? What if a Lion's lost love suddenly reappears in his life, in some sort of danger and asks a dishonourable favour that may save her life? What if in the heat of combat a Lion bushi rips off the mask of his opponent? How that plays out for the PC in question is where great stories and great games could be made. The Lion (particularly the Ikoma) are my favourite Clan to play for all of those reasons. Striving to adhere to Bushido isn't and shouldn't be easy, which for me makes the Lion one of the more difficult (but ultimately rewarding) Clans to play.
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grimm
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Post by grimm on Apr 2, 2015 14:08:20 GMT -8
So, basically this is an L5R "your way" issue. That's fine then. When you start down the path of "cannonical examples don't matter", then this has clearly become a discussion of the Lion Clan as you choose to portray them, not as they are intended to be portrayed.
That said, cannon examples mean nothing TO YOU. To me (and many others), they are the people who make the game illustrating how best to go about playing with the different archetypes that they present as character options. The canonical fictions are a huge, very useful resource in looking at how the game designers/storytellers think the Clans (and Bushido) is supposed to look. They are the broad strokes, upon which GMs can paint smaller scenes with individual characters.
You are correct in saying that there is no wrong way to play an RPG. Clearly you and your tables have fun playing in the setting as you all understand it, and that's fine. But there is cannon, and there is deviation from cannon, and the Lion Clan as you are describing them are more of a deviation.
Personally, I like the canonical version better. Playing the Lion as being 'flawed' makes them essentially the same as every other Clan, and reduces their unique flavour to mere war-mongering. I like the idea that all Lions (with rare exception) are paragons of virtue and live meticulously to avoid shame and obey tradition. Candidly, that makes them more of a challenge to play, because you don't have any grey area to work with. That makes them much deeper as characters right off the hop, and makes the inevitable honour losses that ALL PCs must suffer to get by in the world mean a lot more when they happen. While other (lesser) Clans an brush them off as a necessary evil, the Lion character is going to feel those stings deeply, every single time. That's powerful, and when run by a player who takes the Bushido element seriously can result in amazing character moments.
I'm sure your way tells good stories, too. But I'll pick the cannon version every time, so I guess at this stage we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Apr 3, 2015 13:36:22 GMT -8
So, basically this is an L5R "your way" issue. That's fine then. When you start down the path of "cannonical examples don't matter", then this has clearly become a discussion of the Lion Clan as you choose to portray them, not as they are intended to be portrayed. That said, cannon examples mean nothing TO YOU. To me (and many others), they are the people who make the game illustrating how best to go about playing with the different archetypes that they present as character options. The canonical fictions are a huge, very useful resource in looking at how the game designers/storytellers think the Clans (and Bushido) is supposed to look. They are the broad strokes, upon which GMs can paint smaller scenes with individual characters. You are correct in saying that there is no wrong way to play an RPG. Clearly you and your tables have fun playing in the setting as you all understand it, and that's fine. But there is cannon, and there is deviation from cannon, and the Lion Clan as you are describing them are more of a deviation. Personally, I like the canonical version better. Playing the Lion as being 'flawed' makes them essentially the same as every other Clan, and reduces their unique flavour to mere war-mongering. I like the idea that all Lions (with rare exception) are paragons of virtue and live meticulously to avoid shame and obey tradition. Candidly, that makes them more of a challenge to play, because you don't have any grey area to work with. That makes them much deeper as characters right off the hop, and makes the inevitable honour losses that ALL PCs must suffer to get by in the world mean a lot more when they happen. While other (lesser) Clans an brush them off as a necessary evil, the Lion character is going to feel those stings deeply, every single time. That's powerful, and when run by a player who takes the Bushido element seriously can result in amazing character moments. I'm sure your way tells good stories, too. But I'll pick the cannon version every time, so I guess at this stage we'll just have to agree to disagree. I AM portraying the Lion Clan as they are meant to be portrayed, as far as I'm concerned. ALL samurai are 'inherently' flawed; they are human, after all. That's why there are DISADVANTAGES in the game (seriously, mate, try playing a Lion with a Failure of Bushido Disadvantage). The Lion just hold themselves to a higher standard IN SPITE of their flaws. In fact, they hold themselves to an impossible standard. Bushido, by its' very nature, is virtually impossible to adhere to perfectly (did you never wonder why you can't take more than one Paragon advantage?) The Lion know this, but they aspire to it anyway. They know they will fail, but that doesn't stop them from trying, which is what in my eyes makes them great. Taking that away, making them perfectly honourable as you seem to be doing, just makes them munchkins and what's interesting about that? Don't forget, PC's start as young samurai. They will make mistakes, and hopefully stand tall, learn from them and accept the consequences. For the Lion, this is second nature, more so than any of the other Clans, because they take it seriously. I can accept a rank 5 PC being a Paragon of Honour, but a rank 1 or 2? By all means lean on L5R canon as your guide on how to portray the various Clans, but at least take it as a whole. Obviously stories written from the Lion point of view emphasis their honour and actions based upon their interpretation of Bushido (which by the way is not necessarily correct, but ONLY correct as far as the Lion are concerned). However, pretty much any story that features the Lion from any other point of view usually portrays them as brash, inflexible, arrogant and quick to take insult. There is a reason for that. They are not Kami; they are human. While we're on the subject of canon examples, what of Akodo Toturi? He suffered the greatest shame a Lion could ever face because of his own hubris, yet still triumphed over that adversity to save the Empire. What of Matsu Tsuko? Akodo Ginawa? The greatest Lion samurai in the canon seem to be the ones who overcome their flaws in the face of the greatest adversity. It's what makes them great. War-mongering? Really? The Lion are bred for war; it's their reason for being. Portraying them as human samurai who aspire to more doesn't make them war-mongers, even though that is how clans like the Crane or the Phoenix see it. But as you say, we can agree to disagree.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Apr 3, 2015 18:24:21 GMT -8
...everything awesome ever... But as you say, we can agree to disagree. Can I like this more than once? Back in my CCG playing days I was drawn to the Lion because of their endless struggle against that which can never be attained. While other players played Lion as the fast blitz military, I played them how I saw them as a clan. Intricate and balanced and honorable. When I sat down at a table and pulled out the typical Lion stronghold everyone rolled their eyes and sighed. Then on turn one when I pulled a Gohei for full cost instead of the typical discount I got a raised eyebrow. On turn two when I flipped over a Doji Shizue in one process I got querulous looks. On turn three when I was already at 18 honor because of two won duels and hadn't yet attacked a single province I got dumbfounded stares. On turn four when I pulled off my combo and gained 10 honor in one turn before attacking and gaining 7 more via duels... I saw scared looks. On turn 5 when I hit 4o honor and won, having never taken a single province... I smiled as they played the game over in their head trying to figure out what just happened. Then I would politely remind them of Akodo's Leadership. “No enemy was ever overcome by repeating the same strategy. Innovation creates victory.” To me the Lion aren't butchers and warmongers, they are tactical geniuses. The Lion look at everything as a battlefield and apply the art of tactics to that battlefield. Deploying their units to best effect and changing the face of that battlefield to suit their needs. I might be murdered in my sleep for saying this, but in some ways Lion are by far sneakier than the Scorpion. No one expects a Lion of dishonor, so they use that to their advantage, the way any good general would.
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grimm
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Post by grimm on Apr 4, 2015 13:56:34 GMT -8
I didn't mean to imply they shouldn't be played as having disadvantages. Nor did I mean to imply that they shouldn't be capable of great hubris or tactical genius. If I did so, I was clearly mistaken. My interpretation of "flawed" was clearly overstating what you meant by the word.
It's tempting for a lot of players (in any RPG) to play characters who lean more towards the "D&D Neutral" end of the spectrum. Most players don't like having to deal with the fact that there can and should be emotional and ethical consequences for your actions. The Lion as you have described them to thin point sounded to me like an effort to push a clan that is rigidly moral (inflexibly so, as you rightly pointed out) and whose daily struggle is based on adherence to a strict code of conduct back towards that neutral centre, and I found that move distasteful. I don't feel that Lion, generally speaking, should be comfortable with working in grey areas. I think people who play Lions in this manner are ultimately being lazy, and I dislike lazy characters in L5R games. Again I'm not meaning to say that's what you are doing or have done, but this is the impression I got from the earlier posts.
(And yes, there are obvious exceptions to the universal honour of any Clan. Every high-honour clan has some group that operates from the shadows. But they are clearly meant to be their clan's exception to the rule about being honourable. The Ikoma's Spymasters exists for the same reason Harrier tradition exists for the Crane and the Sodona family exists in the Phoenix - so that players who want to play grey-area or non-Bushido characters from high-honour families have a faction they can join to get them there without just making them Kolats.)
Bushido is not about being "good", after all. It's about being RIGHT, or at least CORRECT in your actions. Lion are brash most often because a fight proves who is in the right better than words do, and that's important to someone who cares deeply about not being wrong. Lion (Matsu especially) get angry a lot, and almost always that anger is motivated by the idea that someone is looking down on their honour. I completely agree that Lions are not butchers and war-mongers. But without that firm code of conduct to motivate their (genuine) need to be militant, then that's what their tendency to violence amounts to.
Lions with a lot of behavioural disadvantages are awesome, because they are rich with opportunities to explore the issue of balancing the impossible complexity of Bushido and the consequences of those failures. But Lions who do something shameful (like abusing or shaming an already-defeated opponent, bringing the issue back to it's original point) without feeling great remorse or trying to make amends is a Bad Lion, because there is no tennet of Bushido he can point at to say he was justified. And while it's fine to have a few Bad Lions here and there, if all of the Lions in your game are some level of Bad Lions, then to me they aren't the Lion Clan anymore. They're no different than the Mantis - ignoring Bushido whenever it doesn't suit them.
You're right to say that Lion fictions idealize Lions much more than other Clan's fictions do. I think that the setting needs someone to set the bar, and that the Lion are the best clan to do it. (The Crane care too much about politics, and the Phoenix are too eager to talk things out. They're too flexible to set the highest standard.) If there aren't Clans and samurai who can be expected to behave honourably on a consistent basis, then you're going to end up with a game setting where everyone takes much more liberty with Bushido, and people start treating Bushido like it's something that their characters are expected to pay lip service to or only obey in public, instead of a code that is central and important to the decision-making of several clans, the Lion in particular.
Clearly, we are violently agreeing, and in part I'm confident we are talking past each other in an effort be more right. Which I suppose is poetic justice for any discussion of the Lion Clan. Suffice it to say that I agree with you about the Lion Clan at large, and disagree with you about the correct way to handle this particular Lion (infiltrator).
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Apr 6, 2015 0:41:07 GMT -8
Fair enough. It seemed to me that you were saying that the Lion were always perfect in their interpretation of Bushido and Honourable conduct, which of course is not the case.
With regard to the original discussion, the only thing I would add is, ironically, from the story canon. During the first Emerald Championship, Matsu angered Kakita by her conduct. Matsu mocked, belittled and intimidated her opponents, which Kakita saw as dishonourable. When they met in the final, Kakita won with a single perfect cut, and deliberately turned his back on Matsu, treating her in the same way. This in turn angered Matsu, starting the great Lion-Crane rivalry.
If the PC in question was trying to pass himself off as a Matsu, he could use this as an example of how he got carried away 'in the heat of combat' emulating Lady Matsu. He'd need to know the history (Lore: History roll maybe?), and be very, very convincing. He'd also better be prepared to deal with the consequences of his actions as a Lion, because as you rightly said, the Lion take Bushido and honourable conduct very seriously indeed. It would be amusing for everyone else at the table if the ranking Lion demanded seppuku to redeem the Lion's honour........
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G.I. Joe
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Post by G.I. Joe on May 5, 2015 19:13:29 GMT -8
Back in my CCG playing days I was drawn to the Lion because of their endless struggle against that which can never be attained. While other players played Lion as the fast blitz military, I played them how I saw them as a clan. Intricate and balanced and honorable. When I sat down at a table and pulled out the typical Lion stronghold everyone rolled their eyes and sighed. Then on turn one when I pulled a Gohei for full cost instead of the typical discount I got a raised eyebrow. On turn two when I flipped over a Doji Shizue in one process I got querulous looks. On turn three when I was already at 18 honor because of two won duels and hadn't yet attacked a single province I got dumbfounded stares. On turn four when I pulled off my combo and gained 10 honor in one turn before attacking and gaining 7 more via duels... I saw scared looks. On turn 5 when I hit 4o honor and won, having never taken a single province... I smiled as they played the game over in their head trying to figure out what just happened. Then I would politely remind them of Akodo's Leadership. “No enemy was ever overcome by repeating the same strategy. Innovation creates victory.” Ha! Brilliant. I take a very different approach to the CCG I go completely against what my clan stands for (at least for my main). My main is a Pheonix buff deck. I get very big personalities; though sometimes it may take a few turns. Then I obliterate everything in my way. Plus the new Pheonix stronghold is awesome. On the topic at hand, I know that the issue is probably cleared up by now, but I would have had her immediately challenge the PC to a duel. Also, the judges wouldn't come into the decision as to whether the action was honorable or not, it was a clear disrespect for both the Pheonix and her ancestors (in fact, if she doesn't challenge him SHE loses honor because it is enduring an insult to her family; not just herself). Whether or not she felt it was dishonorable is all that matters. That is the point of the duel. Remember, a duel is a sacred ritual overseen by the kami and it is to the kami to judge the actions. This is why Kharmic strikes are so fun...
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