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Post by shadrack on Aug 25, 2014 11:24:18 GMT -8
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Post by savagedaddy on Aug 25, 2014 18:00:25 GMT -8
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 1, 2014 17:50:31 GMT -8
Here's my spin on the subject of samey-ness in Savage Worlds:
1. Savage Worlds puts the onus of deciding what something looks like, feels like, sounds like, etc. on the players and the gm rather than on the game system.
2. Savage Worlds does not address what the flavor of the game should be. Like #1 that's a problem for the gm and the players to solve. If the gm wants / needs suggestions they provide a number of setting books and such that provide different flavors of that implementation.
3. Savage Worlds removes redundancy by not having multiple things in the game that have the same functional mechanical impact on the game. (Why have three different area of attack spells that do the same amount of damage and the only difference is that one does fire, one does electricity and one does cold?)
4. If as a player or gm I run a Savage Worlds game or play a Savage Worlds character that is "samey" the fault is mine not the game's.
Just my 2 krupplenicks on the subject, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 2, 2014 5:49:48 GMT -8
Assuming the sameyness is in the character builds - which is the only context in which I have heard this issue talked about, I would argue that the "sameyness" people feel is down to it being a fairly light generic system.
If they find builds too similar - use the specialisation rules. This in itself will go a long way to differentiating character builds. Second, stop building the same characters every time!
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 2, 2014 6:38:59 GMT -8
Next up on the "Beating a Dead Horse Podcast": "What do you want the house to look like ...in your mind ?" (Yes the three minutes I spent creating this house WERE exhausting...but luckily it left me with enough time to still have a life) vs "this is what it looks like." (Why yes I do in fact have no job and scouring 200 supplemental plans to best represent this place has allowed me to develop a greater sense of independence because my wife and dog have left me.)
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Post by rickno7 on Sept 2, 2014 8:12:35 GMT -8
It doesn't even take more books or a 3rd party publisher to get rid of the "sameness".
Right there in the Deluxe Edition is the small page and 1/2 on trappings. There are people that know the rules and skimmed over this and say "yea, so I can choose it to be lightning instead of fire, it still deals the same damage in the same way". They dismiss it with the same speed they skimmed over the page in the first place. Its a short page, take some effort, RTFM.
Trappings don't change just what things look and sound like. I can't speak for other universal systems that I'm not completely familiar with, but maybe that's how they do it. In Savage Worlds, the trappings add things like knockout, special enviromental effects, status changes and all sorts of stuff. You don't even have to spend more points to have that put on there, they aren't spell enhancement feats(to borrow phrases from D20). The "sanmeness" of the game is directly on the GM's and the player's shoulder, if you're at a CON game and your experience with Savage worlds is a con game with pre-gens, then that is FULLY on the GM.
It is not a horrible thing for a GM to not know 100% of the rules, there is no fault in being imperfect. But after you
#1: complain #2: Get corrected on this assumption in a way that solves your complaint
NOW it is on them to know, now its their fault for what they don't get out of the system. You want to ignore it and keep Savage Worlds "same", that's cool too, but you forfeit the right to go on podcasts and bitch about the sameness without consequence. Everyone has the right to bitch but that doesn't mean you're not going to be criticized with unfavorable descriptions of your GM habits.
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Post by shadrack on Sept 2, 2014 8:43:24 GMT -8
Hey, you guys are preaching to the choir with me.
However, my initial goal is that people without a lot of experience, or perhaps have had a bad experience can get some... inspiration for their differentiation.
Perhaps they need a mechanical 'crutch', perhaps they haven't seen the specialization rules or aren't familiar with how trappings work and just need to see a couple examples laid out.
Maybe we should make a game about it. game idea #1) Someone nominates a character, others savage said character => example: Drizzt Do'Urden (hehe - actually, I see him more as a martial artist with ki powers as opposed to a ranger with blessing from his deity) game idea #2) Someone chooses 2(or so) representative characters who operate in the same or similar ways and savages them both. examples: => Gord the Rogue vs. Gray Mouser (vs Regis) (vs Tasselhoff); Conan vs Fafhrd (vs Wulfgar) (vs Riverwind)
Just to restate: I agree that the onus is on the players and GM, but some of them may be looking for some help. Those we can help, we should.
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joegun
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Post by joegun on Sept 29, 2014 16:15:32 GMT -8
I can speak to this as well. We recently played a Savage Worlds Pulp game, and my friend and I decided to play brothers....(the Hardy Boys....not those hardy boys but it provided some laughs). Anyway We decided since we were brothers (and partially because of this topic coming up in the past) to make the exact same attributes. The same basic skill levels: Notice, fighting, shooting, ect. The only real difference was edges and hindrances....and BACKSTORY. During play while we were mechanically almost identical....the edges, backstory and personality really made the characters totally different. So yeah maybe we roll the same dice to punch a guy in the face...but come on, of course my guy did it better...I was the better brother anyway
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Oct 17, 2014 11:37:56 GMT -8
I would add one thing here gleamed from Dungeon World: failing in interesting ways can make the game - and specifically the PC - feel different. And those interesting ways could and should be reflective in the character themselves.
E.g. if your character is a klutz (low Agility or some hinderance that implies such) then when a roll fails, the failure takes this into account, and that becomes the REASON or the WAY IN WHICH the failure occurs. Anyone can "miss", but in this case the miss is a stumble, a fall, maybe even a "hit" with damage but the sword is left in the opponents stomach and now you have no weapon.
Sure, the GM and player can just say "a miss is a miss", but it's exactly that uninspired storytelling and non-use of the mechanics which makes the game or scenario feel same-y ("just another combat", "just another failed maneuver", etc.)
I certainly haven't felt that PCs are same-y in Savage Worlds any more than they are in other systems; to me this feels like a perception problem. In fact, because of the lack of formalized "classes", it feels like there is more to play with and more directions and customizations, whereas in traditional D&D there are only 8 classes or whatever... how same-y is that? (I know there are feats and such to choose from, but the accumulation of these class-specific powers just feels the same to me; at least in dungeon world and savage worlds there are a whole set of powers you can choose from at will, instead of a the same steady line of progression).
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Hangman
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Post by Hangman on Apr 12, 2015 11:36:39 GMT -8
I've found that the biggest reason for characters being samey is the player's perceived value and utility of certain skills. Things like Fighting, Notice, and Shooting are really important (especially Fighting) in most settings and players will very quickly grasp this concept and run with it, unless they're really interested in making a neat concept and trying to build that. Most players don't like playing with the nuts and bolts, and will instantly gravitate to what has the most perceived bang for your buck, and consequently build characters that are all very similar.
Another thing that tends to be skipped is, as stated above, mechanical effects for the flavor of your powers. If you're lazy, you can pull them right out of the fantasy companion, or the GM and player can figure out a fair and interesting ability for the power, and it can stop being different colored ketchup.
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Post by ilina on Sept 5, 2015 20:43:25 GMT -8
using my physically underdeveloped psionic doctor with a childlike personality as an example, she had psionics and healer, and most of the classic support powers a medic would want in that setting (boost trait, quickness, healing, succor, enviroment protection, and for the setting, radiation resistance) but she mostly flavored her psionic powers as psychometabolism that enhances the body's inherent functions and even had the mental healer edge. she was literally built identical to every other psionic doctor in broken earth, but she was unique in that she had small to represent her childlike frame and appearance passing her for a 12 year old at the age of 26, outsider represented her acting very much like a precocious and mentally advanced 12 year old to the point adults didn't take her seriously or beleive she was 26, and she had a habit of speaking like an underage anime girl to make herself sound cuter and also had a phobia of crowds and cameras (phobia of crowds was her second minor, not habit)
she didn't even really put much in fighting or shooting, but did take notice. she has a parry of 4 and a shooting of a d6 with an unarmored toughness of 4 and only 20 pounds of carry capacity
what makes her different from most healers? because of her underdeveloped form and personality, she actually had an easier time drawing information from the local children in the wasteland, because they saw her akin to being a not too much older big sister who plays with them, and generally, she gets bonuses instead of penalties to charisma when she is communicating with children but penalties with adults. so generally, her boosted streetwise rolls consists of her playing hopscotch and other games with the local children for information, which cancels out her effective -4 (-2 from outsider w/ adults, -2 untrained)
because she acts precocious and advanced for the age she appears (because she is actually 26 years old, even if she looks like a 12 year old based on her size and heavy skincare alone). she often does more adult uses of smarts tricks with her d8 smarts that make her come across as a precocious teen. such as flipping her own skirt briefly and flashing her panties to an opponent to distract them briefly in the traditional anime girl fashion. or carressing her own shoulders and psyching her opponent into thinking she is going to unbutton her schoolgirl jacket when she really isn't
she only weighs 94 pounds (small hindrance) and is only 5 feet and 1 inch tall, because her use of psychometabolism tends to burn excessive amounts of her own calories, giving her the need to eat like an athletic adult male while explaining why she is always small, underweight and underdeveloped. because any calories she consumes go to fueling her psionics.
and well, most of the time, she can be seen eating something sugary like a snickers bar or bag of gummy bears, because she knows she will burn the calories eventually. and her husband is a really amazing cook played by my fiancee. i mean, her husband has a d12 in cooking and the master culinarian heroic edge which grants +2 to cooking and allows consumed food to gain healing properties on either fatigue, power points or wounds, depending on the circumstance. meaning a single meal can heal 1 wound, heal 1 fatigue or recover 5 power points. but each meal takes an hour to prepare and accomodates a number of people equal to his cooking skill (feed up to 12 people).
essentially, the group has 2 healers. one of which is a freaking Italian-American 6 Star Chef from Northern California who even makes the hand gestures when he speaks in character. both our characters are healers, but we do the style very differently.
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