HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 22, 2015 18:50:41 GMT -8
Glad you guys got a chance to play Fate, an Apocalypse World hack, and Dogs in the Vineyard at the last con. Now there are more games you can discuss with absolute authority.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Feb 22, 2015 19:05:40 GMT -8
Glad you guys got a chance to play Fate, an Apocalypse World hack, and Dogs in the Vineyard at the last con. Now there are more games you can discuss with absolute authority. You know what they say, It Only takes one try. Or was my Doctor telling me about Crack . . . ? Ah well.
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Post by Houndin on Feb 23, 2015 7:12:44 GMT -8
I have listened to the first part of the podcast and just want to weigh in on something that popped into my mind while listening about dealing with a 'No-Kill' Pacifist. I just finished watching the first season of Avatar: The Last Airbender again, and I love how Aang deals with NOT killing people or even resorting to violence quite often.
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Post by Probie Tim on Feb 23, 2015 8:15:48 GMT -8
I love how Aang deals with NOT killing people or even resorting to violence quite often. How is that, for those of us who don't watch that show?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 9:51:20 GMT -8
Just a quick comment regarding JiB's statement about giving players a chance to jump the grand canyon if they roll well enough. I have to completely disagree with the implication there that they should be allowed to achieve anything with a good enough roll. If I'm running a gritty, realistic game then I don't care how well you roll, a character achieving something like jumping the grand canyon breaks the setting and the game.
If we're sticking to the 'Yes and...' philosophy then my answer to 'Can I try to jump the grand canyon?' will be 'Yes, and you will die.' Switch to a genre where being able to occasionally achieve the impossible makes sense then fine, let them try but if it doesn't make sense I don't see why there should be even a remote chance of success.
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Post by Houndin on Feb 23, 2015 9:51:37 GMT -8
I love how Aang deals with NOT killing people or even resorting to violence quite often. How is that, for those of us who don't watch that show? Brief Primer: the world is made up of normal people and "Benders" who have power over one of the four classical elements. The bender gene is expressed "culturally" in that all fire benders hail from the Fire Nation, Earth benders from the Earth Kingdom, etc... One person each generation is born to become the Avatar when the previous one passes on. It's an unbroken cycle of rebirth that stretches back for countless generations. The Avatar is a bender of extraordinary power who can learn to bend all four elements. Their job is to maintain the balance of the world. Aang is "the last airbender" because shortly after his ascension to avatar-hood, the Air Nomads were wiped out by a power hungry Fire nation. Aang escaped and ended up trapped in stasis under the south pole for 100 years. He is a 12 year old boy who was raised by non-confrontational air-bending monks who are all dead now. In his absence the Fire nation declared war on the rest of the world and are waging a multi-generational assault on anyone who's not Fire Nation. Aang's quest throughout the series is to bring peace to the world. His primary response to being attacked is to evade and "blow" his opponents away from him. Even after he learns the other, more lethal, styles of bending. His companions, learning from his example, often choose to capture enemies to stand trial rather than kill them outright. However, towards the end of the series, everyone, including spirit versions of Aang's previous lives, is telling him that he needs to fight the Fire Lord and defeat him. Everyone believes that Aang is supposed to kill said Fire Lord. He spends several episodes conflicted about it and ultimately decides on a different path. It's been out for a while, but I don't want to spoil the reveal for you if you decide to watch it.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Feb 23, 2015 10:34:19 GMT -8
This may not quite jive with the pacifist-topic exactly, but here's what my friend Howie did in a recent space game I ran:
He was playing an alien race that was classically an enemy of the other races and PCs. He chose to be "the medic" as his profession and skills, and (being Savage Worlds) a "pacifist" as his hindrance. In his case in the game, he had some reasons to not work well with the others, but instead of ever getting "violent", he decided that because he wouldn't really know their physiology, he would just recommend all sorts of random (and possibly harmful) healing remedies to the other PCs. And in fact he avoided all conflicts in the game, mostly cause he was busy fulfilling his other goals. I don't think he raised a weapon once (maybe a stunner, but you could argue that's a pretty non-violent way to deal with a violent opponent; to stun them).
You could argue he isn't really a "pacifist" if he plans to do harm to the other PCs (or enemies), and that may be the case, but I thought it was an interesting build. I will preface this with saying he is a little bit of a min-maxer, so I suspect he chose Pacifist as a way to get a hindrance that he could still play effectively to his end-goals.
Pacifist doesn't necessarily mean you are a nice guy. Maybe you just don't like violence cause it was done to you. Or cause you are a coward. Or you don't wish harm on individuals, but do have some higher morals or codes that would allow harm to be done to them in lieu of the greater good (i.e. you wouldn't interfere with harm that others have orchestrated to save someone; "pacifist" does not equal "hero" or "courageous"). Think of a hippie who hates the government and opposes it "peacefully", and who won't go and fight for the country... doesn't mean he doesn't hate your guts as the government stiff, or the cop; he just wouldn't physically or mentally abuse you. Maybe he just wants to find a way to convert you "peacefully".
Oooh... like in a superheroes game: a pacifist with mental abilities / psionics would be cool... mayeb has ways to temper down peoples' violence, maybe make them nauseous when they get violent. I.e. they aren't "hurting" the person, but causing the persons bodies to react against that persons own violent tendencies... so that person could prevent being "self-hurt" by controlling their own violence. In Savage Worlds mechanics maybe they cause the person to get "fatigue" (nauseous) tokens when the person acts violently.
All in all though, just cause someones a Pacifist doesn't mean they won't commit violence, just that they should try everything to prevent doing it. But even a pacifist may have to self-protect, or protect their friends or others from violence THROUGH violence. Just make sure they take some consequence for that (e.g. because of their guilt they get a mechanic penalty in the game, until they can redeem themselves or get forgiveness from that person, or whatever)
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Feb 23, 2015 10:40:33 GMT -8
Just a quick comment regarding JiB's statement about giving players a chance to jump the grand canyon if they roll well enough. I have to completely disagree with the implication there that they should be allowed to achieve anything with a good enough roll. If I'm running a gritty, realistic game then I don't care how well you roll, a character achieving something like jumping the grand canyon breaks the setting and the game. If we're sticking to the 'Yes and...' philosophy then my answer to 'Can I try to jump the grand canyon?' will be 'Yes, and you will die.' Switch to a genre where being able to occasionally achieve the impossible makes sense then fine, let them try but if it doesn't make sense I don't see why there should be even a remote chance of success. To be fair to JiB all he was saying is there's a mechanic in Savage World's that lets amazing things happen. So ... if you are running Gritty and Realistic, would Sw be your system of choice? AND if you are running gritty and realistic, are your payers dick enough to say "I'm jumping the grand canyon" ? I'm thinking that my players would more likely try to do some John Woo style ballistic ballet for their exploding dice success.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Feb 23, 2015 11:23:49 GMT -8
stork couldn't think of a system where combat wasn't the largest section of the rules - Hillfolk (proceedural scenes) which include combat, 8 pages
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Post by Kainguru on Feb 23, 2015 13:33:31 GMT -8
Reflecting on the hosts reflections of the Con-Cast . . . was tyler a bit like this? Aaron
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Post by lowkeyoh on Feb 24, 2015 1:14:18 GMT -8
Bunch of stuff I want to jump in on for this episode, but the biggest thing is: If you're using the Super Powers Compendium for Savage Worlds, then your heroes should be fighting Super Powered bad guys. Doesn't matter how many bad guys you throw at Batman and Superman, you are not going to beat them with normal goons. Super Powers are not balanced, and as such really need to be dealt with by other super powers.
As for Pacifism, I can't imagine a game where you have one pacifist that won't abide violence and a bunch of murder hobos that doesn't end with "and then we leave him in the town, and wander off"
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Post by Houndin on Feb 24, 2015 8:07:32 GMT -8
On the creating characters with newbie gamers in D&D. If my aging memory doesn't fail me, the 4e red box set had a starter solo play adventure in it, sort of 'choose your own adventure' style. In it you were guarding a merchant cart and were attacked by goblin minions. Based on the choices you made, you ended up with a playable, but not finished 4e character. Even though it was restrictive by only offering multiple choice answers like a Bioware Console game, it definitely helped to get a player aimed towards a particular class.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Feb 24, 2015 12:22:18 GMT -8
Regarding outofprintGM's letter of "five new female players for D&D 5E"... (I think I heard the author correctly) I had that exact situation, only at the time it was prior to 5E, and I was just getting back into RPGs. In my case I looked at a couple of systems, such as D&D (4 was the flavor of the day) and Pathfinder, and found them too rules intense for me, much less my players who could care less. At the time I went with Savage Worlds, but given what I've seen and heard of 5E, I think it's totally appropriate for new players (even though I'm more of a fan of Dungeon World for that demographic). I'm not going to repeat some of the excellent advice on the podcast (be a fan of the players, protect them from mechanics they aren't interested in, work with them to thematically make their characters, etc.). Other things that I thought worked well when I did this: - Use tactile components instead of bookkeeping. If you track arrows, give them little tokens to keep track of them (toothpicks if nothing else!) Instead of counting coins on paper, use pennies. They're fun! End of session? Write it down on paper, unless you have little boxes for each player.
- Miniatures: if you are going to use them, go buy them with the players at the local game shop prior or after character creation or discussion... fun field trip!
- When creating the characters-session, have some images ready... I had the graphics from Pathfinder at the time, a picture for each of the races, each class, etc. and that way they were choosing from the tropes.
- I've been a fan of selecting from a pool of resources, so that everyone isn't overlapping too much, and Dungeon World does that very well, since the playbooks/character sheets are one per class... once someones grabbed the Barbarian, it isn't available for the other guys. I think that could work well since it allows for a limited selection (instead of what may be considered too open a decision to make).
- Definitely do not shy from railroading. I know we talk about sandboxing and yes anding like it's the cat's meow (and it is), however the feedback I got back from a majority of my new players was that they wanted a more defined story with less open-endedness and less mysteries that had to be solved... they wanted a fairly simple story, and I think that's a good place to start. You'll always be surprised by the few who are there just to kill shit, too. Obviously, your mileage will vary.
- In regards to certain mechanics (D&D probably won't have this problem), feel free to select some defaults for some players, and allow them to change it later. For example in Savage Worlds I chose the disads for the characters based on the player's personalities... I knew one friend thought she could do anything so I gave her Overconfidence. It worked out perfectly as far as her playing to that Hindrance, even though she didn't select it or really notice it was there.
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mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Feb 24, 2015 12:29:21 GMT -8
Two things.
Regarding pacifists, it would be useful to have a conversation within the group about this character before play begins for two reasons, one to figure out why that pacifist wants to hang out with a bunch of murderers, and second why a bunch of murderers would care to slowed down by having this pacifistic along. When they do it could be awesome.
Regarding starting out with a bunch of new players. I really disagree about not starting with Pre-generated characters. Certainly if he is starting a campaign, yes yes yes roll up those characters together have a great time. But coming into D&D in a vacuum I think is a mistake. Play that first introduction game with pre-gens for two reasons: one, when the players arrive, boom, they go right into the game, they don't have to sit down and figure a bunch of stuff and thirty or forty minutes later then start playing (and certainly making characters is playing, but sometimes conceptually not for first time players). So, bottom line, it gets them into the game quicker, like at a convention. Second, after the introduction game, when they want to keep on playing, then they make their own character with at least a base of knowledge from the great game you will introduce them with.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Feb 24, 2015 14:24:43 GMT -8
My system to introduce new players, and I mean green players who have never played any game in the tabletop RPGs hobby proper, I starts with a collaborative interview. Regardless of how formal this might sound to some, or offensive, the interview process gives me the player's answers to create tailored, pre-generated characters unique for each player. I plan to explain only the very broadest concepts of the rules and the ability scores, which the player intake rolls. For things like equipment, I ask the player what he or she would bring on a journey like the one his or her player starts out on (players start in the action). Essentially the players play themselves with the dice generated ability scores reflecting their limitations in character.
Like any interview process I have ever gone through, I, as interviewer, ask the interviewee if he or she has any questions pertinent to the situation he or she will be entering.. Typically I answer about setting and the roles of other players getting into as much detail as the player wishes and their character would know.
Then I adapt the information from the interview to fill in the character sheets. My system is very oriented towards the players to begin and, later, towards the group.
I present the intake player with his or her character sheet at a Blue Booking, done with every interviewee as a next, intermediate, step before joining the game. These are typically one scenario games that give the players an immediate GM generated back story. A cleric might get his or her orders to join the group, for example, offering the player a contact within game, an understanding of his or her role in-game without the intercession of rule books, and an immediate individual arc or purpose, which (unbeknownst to the player) is tied to the group’s success. Later the player can give me family trees and histories as much as they want but, generally, I do not find new people thinking like that. They want their feet wet.
The Blue Book game ends at the point of contact with the group, and the intake is invited to the next game. Not every detail is explained. My players learn through play, the game will inform them to the rules; same as I learnt 35 years ago.
Time is important in my campaign game, so the intake players are made aware of events that have occurred in time (by interaction with NPCs). If a PC in the group has made a name for him or herself in game, the new intake player will be made aware of the PC’s reputation (maybe with some embellishment or rumour thrown in), which makes for an interesting introduction for the player who enters in-game. Also, new player intakes can bring in new clues to puzzles facing the group, unlocked through sharing. I report that I have never had a green hobby player be that guy.
I lend the dice; I keep the character sheets; I mark resources off as they get used. Wherever possible, I simplify my bookkeeping by using spell cards, for example, that get turned in to me after each use and returned as appropriate to the demands of the character class. Players start at level 1 with whatever XP they gain from Blue Booking.
The player contract is explained as a game involving political intrigue set in a mythological medieval period (by that I mean gritty). Starting players in the land of elves, magic is abundant. However, magic is not universally believed; accepted, welcomed or even practiced. Individual explanations and cultural reactions are explained to players at the time they pick race and place of origin on a map at the interview.
I welcome players to inject into the game their personal knowledge of mythology and medieval history, but instruct them that whatever they may know (e.g Hammer films, etc) should be considered rumour. I may have changed some things or not. Green players do not expect balanced encounters. They do expect group cohesion to be promoted because the purpose for my games is to make friends.
So the narcissists I identify during the interview are not invited because my game is a social game, and my target player is a person wanting to use the game to socialize. My system is built around that right from the start, well before any stranger gets invited into anyone’s home.
I also find the whole systematic process I use is far more organic and user friendly than running professional tutorials over rulebooks and dice. I advertise AD&D 1e.
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