|
Post by lowkeyoh on Mar 11, 2015 23:30:48 GMT -8
I'm a huge fan of tech at the table. As such, I hate the idea of banning tech at the gaming table. Players zoning out is a huge problem, but banning tech is like putting a bandaid on a gaping chest wound or broken leg. The problem isn't the tech, it's player engagement. Taking away their toys isn't going to necessarily bring them into the game. At my table, most of us have digital sheets and our phones on us. If I get a text from my boss, I'm going to answer it. If my nieces and nephews facebook chat me, I'm going to ask them how their day was. If I get a message from buddies talking about hanging out, I'm going to respond. Generally, I'm going to let them know that I'm busy but I'm going to respond. I hate the idea of "cellphones in the middle, whoever uses theirs first buys pizza/beer/is shunned" We're all adults, we all have people who need to get a hold of us. I hate the idea that the guy on twitter is to be shamed and shunned, but the guy reading the core rulebook, the girl sketching, person stacking dice, and the dude writing his novel in a notebook are all A-OK. Tech doesn't always mean distracted. One of the best players that ever played in my games was either playing Sudoku, Chess, of FTL on his computer the entire session. But he was the first to have a combat strategy, kept track of initiative for the entire group, ALWAYS was in character, and was roleplaying constantly. But your mileage may vary. That being said, it sounds like you do have problems, and players seeking distractions is never a good thing. Unengaged players are hugely emotionally taxing. Talking to your group is probably your best bet. Find out why they aren't paying attention, and see if the problem can be fixed. As stated above, I hate the idea of a tech ban during game time, but let people know that if things don't improve, it's something you might consider. Find out what they want from the game. Above all else I think it's best that you shift your expectations. As much as we all want that magical group of roleplaying where the game disappears and we get caught up in the story and the world we're all in. But realistically, that may not be feasible. I don't have tyler s or Bill Roper s or stork s or the rest of the Happy Jack hosts or community in my group. I don't have people who read the rules in between sessions to clear up discrepancies. I have people who say 'I cast X' and when asked what X does they say "I don't know." I don't get fleshed out backstories, or characters with goals and motivations. I don't get interparty roleplaying. I got half a group that just wants to kill shit, and the other half trying to be the specialest snowflake they can muster. My group didn't want elaborate prep, or a web of NPCs. They wanted bad guys to slay, rad over the top action scenes, and hilarious shenanigans. And while that isn't the game I like playing, I still had a blast providing them with that. If you're putting more into the game than your players, you're going to burn out. Not sure if this helped any, but either way, I hope your game gets better
|
|
|
Post by kaitoujuliet on Mar 12, 2015 6:25:24 GMT -8
I also agree with the younger players being more often engrossed in their devices. FWIW, the two players in my group who will put away their devices without being asked are also the two youngest. (I'm guessing our group has a total age spread of 12-15 years from oldest member to youngest, so not a huge range.) The problem isn't the tech, it's player engagement. In some cases, true. But in my specific case, the problem is GM engagement. Or maybe perceived lack of player engagement causes a problem with GM engagement? As you say, "Unengaged players are hugely emotionally taxing." Anyway, as I said in the original post, most of the players (with one notable exception) are able to follow the game even from behind their electronics. I just find it really difficult to get that energy feedback loop going when they're using their devices, and it's much less fun for me to GM for them in that situation. (I'm sure the Boggards would enjoy their performances less if their entire audience had smartphones out the whole time too.) So ... what's a GM to do if (like me) she does her best work when drawing on player energy? It's all very well to say "GM better so that you steal their attention away from the devices," but I think that puts a truly unfair extra hurdle in the GM's path--you have to compete with the entire internet for your players' attention. I don't think I'd mind tech at the table if the players were using it just for the game (digital maps, character sheets, in-character IMs, etc.). But I don't think they would be using it just for the game. I also don't think it's a case where the group wants a less complex game than I do. At least, if I ask them, I'm pretty sure they'll say they want complex webs of NPCs and the whole ball of yarn. Maybe I could make a deal with them: pledge to give them that if they'll stay off their devices while gaming??
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Mar 12, 2015 9:28:32 GMT -8
Use the devices to add to your performance. The interconnectivity of this tech has yet to be fully realised and exploited - approach the problem laterally Aaron
|
|
|
Post by guitarspider on Mar 12, 2015 9:44:43 GMT -8
I don't think I'd mind tech at the table if the players were using it just for the game (digital maps, character sheets, in-character IMs, etc.). But I don't think they would be using it just for the game. It's too easy to get distracted. I doubt they are truly bored, but if the device is there, people are going to be using it. They're doing it while driving and walking, why not while they're gaming? At my table I don't have a ban on electronics, and I don't mind if a player is checking his or her phone now and then, but there's definitely a threshold where I am going to say something, because players do ruin the game for themselves by disengaging, often without even meaning to.
|
|
|
Post by lowkeyoh on Mar 12, 2015 11:20:00 GMT -8
So the problem is that you're burning out and losing enthusiasm. Really, the choices you have are to accept this and mitigate it as much as possible, or try and solve the problem. As a personal note, I chose to accept and mitigate and did not regret my decision. If you're going to try and tackle the problem, it's probably going to start with a conversation with your players. Either together or separate. Standard "I feel" language is going to help them not feel attacked, and hopefully you can convince them that paying attention to tech is hurting the game. Players are probably going to be receptive because a burned out GM = no game, and if they are still digging the game they'll want to preserve it. A tech ban to get people into the swing of active participation wouldn't be out of the question, it just pains me that it's come to that.
As for things you can try to get people back into the game. Sidebars! Physically pull players away from the table to tell them things. Haha, you can't check your phone when we're over there!
Secondly, I'd stop narrating out loud what people see for perception checks and knowledge checks. Everyone has tech? Everyone has google messaging or facebook messaging. You pass a perception check, you get sent the message of what there is to see. If other players need to know about that trap, it's up to you to tell them. This brings players more into the game, in my opinion, and might help break the habit of phone hovering.
|
|
|
Post by kaitoujuliet on Mar 13, 2015 5:54:43 GMT -8
So the problem is that you're burning out and losing enthusiasm. Would you call it burnout if I've only run three or four games for this group in the last year? Out of a group of seven, we have four or five who are willing to GM. Oh, and I didn't force this Star Wars game on them, either. I had been talking about restarting it for a while, but had sort of put aside my prep due to the fact that we were hardly ever getting together for regular sessions. They then came to me and suggested that we set a date for the first new session. ...How does it help the habit of phone hovering if they're hovering over their phones to start with and then just switch the screen to see what I send them for perception check results? I just want to be clear that what I see in game sessions is not players who are generally looking up but occasionally glancing down at phones, laptops, and tablets. What I see is players who have their eyes glued to phones, laptops, and tablets and who frequently will respond to what the GM says without moving their eyes from those screens. Eye contact is a big part of getting energy going if you're a "performer" GM.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Mar 13, 2015 8:14:52 GMT -8
What you have is disconnect between player and GM preferred styles . . . an adult conversation and compromise is the best solution. Being that there will be compromise you will never be 100% happy with whatever mutual solution is reached - and whether you can adapt to that is a personal choice. As to performing and needing feedback - that's common . . . especially with stand up comedians etc. The issue appears not so much to be the actual devices -because the players could, as previously mentioned, be stacking dice, doodling, looking up a book etc etc - it's having the players attend to your performance. Half the battle in solving a problem is identifying what it actually is. In this case it's 'grabbing the players attention and focus' - be it away from their device, the tower of dice they have constructed or the work of naive art they have sketched in the margins of their character sheet . . . Aaron
|
|
nm3art
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 18
Currently Running: Dungen World
|
Post by nm3art on Mar 29, 2015 6:38:26 GMT -8
Players on there phone makes me rage. Even as a player it is annoying and as a GM its infuriating. Why are they here? To play a game? obviously they only sort of care about that. Is it just to hang out with their friends, and the game is just the excuse for hanging out? Well if they are looking at their phone more then the group of friends, then no that's not it either.
I was playing in a group of people where two of the members (A long time member and his girlfriend) where on there phones about 80% of the time. playing games and looking up shit on IMDB and other such random nerd stuff. It got to the point where they would be playing games with each other on there phones while the GM had to struggle to get them to pay attention.
When I decided to run a game I "forgot" to send them the email inviting them to the game. Iv only run one session but with out them the group as a whole has more engagement. As if they where a sucking vortex of apathy that brought the group down a notch.
Out of respect to your friends and especially the GM you should limit your distractions. Drawing in a sketch book, playing with your phone, reading books and so on. IT'S FUCKING RUDE.
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Mar 29, 2015 7:18:46 GMT -8
I keep thinking of my maths class in high school. So long as the answers were delivered on demand, and I could show my work, I was able to design my dungeons on graph paper and populate them using the Monster Manual open on my knee under the desk. That behaviour has existed long before mobile phones.
Rules heavy games are like my maths class. 1) Know the system. 2) Immerse in the system. 3) Get bored with the system, disengage with the table. 4) Quietly entertain oneself so as not to be disruptive. So long as the player can stand and deliver, there is no attention required. The game sorta plays itself, RAW.
I am not saying this is wrong.
It is rude, surely. But, maybe, not all players see it that way. Some players may be more concerned about other players not knowing the system well enough to be table worthy. Maybe these unworthy ones are the ones being "rude" while the rude (anti-social behaviour) ones feel they are being courteously patient....
|
|
nm3art
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 18
Currently Running: Dungen World
|
Post by nm3art on Mar 29, 2015 8:00:46 GMT -8
Rules heavy games are like my maths class. 1) Know the system. 2) Immerse in the system. 3) Get bored with the system, disengage with the table. 4) Quietly entertain oneself so as not to be disruptive. So long as the player can stand and deliver, there is no attention required. The game sorta plays itself, RAW. If your bored with the game, take an active role in making it less boring don't just hang out taking up table space. Id rather have an open seat then a player who would rather be doing something else. Now this is all together different if we are playing a war game or a board game. In that case active participation is just being ready when your turn comes up, but RPGs are collaborative (or should be). Like a high school group project, no one likes that guy who dose nothing and just slaps his name on the paper at the end. EDIT: So Iv realized that iv not added anything to this conversation but bitching so I apologize. The subject just hit a nerve because iv been dealing with these types of players for a few months. For advice: do a lot of asking the players what their characters are doing or what they would think about whats going on. Try prodding them into being more proactive. You could also ask them after a session if they are not enjoining them selves and if there is any thing you could change? they will ask why you think they are not enjoying them selves and you can bring up the fact they are always on there phone. If none of that works "forget" to send out that invite email.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Mar 30, 2015 9:24:55 GMT -8
I have artists at my Star Wars game that draw constantly. One of whom is my wife. The first few times she would whip out her sketch book I would get slightly annoyed and say "Hey, my dice are up here!" (DYSWIDT?) But now having these really incredible drawings become incorporated into the game, like a droid with a plague doctors mask...has made the game all the more immersive. Phones tend to be distracting and lame but doodles and sketches (if game related) are cool with me.
|
|
|
Post by Forresst on Mar 30, 2015 15:01:26 GMT -8
I was going to say pretty much the same thing as D.T. Pints about the non-electronic things people do sometimes. I personally tend to do a lot of crochet at the gaming table, which can be a little off-putting at first, but I've explained to anyone who asks that I tend to be able to concentrate better with the mental "white noise" of basic counting to 5 instead of just silence. When I feel like I need to be listening more intently than normal, I just... look up.
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Mar 30, 2015 15:47:04 GMT -8
Exactly. We have one player who always has to be doing something with his hands. He's paying attention, but...
|
|
|
Post by weaselcreature on Mar 31, 2015 7:34:50 GMT -8
Then there's the times it's useful. The GM for our Star Wars game is one who very much dislikes electronics at the table (other than the dice roller app or sending in-game messages to the GM). We lost our babysitter last night, so my wife went to the game and I stayed home; during a part where my character's input was important, they FaceTimed me in (FaceTime is Apples video phone):
|
|
|
Post by heavymetaljess on Mar 31, 2015 7:43:07 GMT -8
I like that they made sure you still got a beer.
|
|