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Post by ericfromnj on Mar 17, 2015 9:59:39 GMT -8
It would seem that "Yes, and..." works best when the players don't even know it has been utilized to advance the story, at least based on Stu's two examples of the Toyman and also the Lion's Claw from L5R, which was mentioned in an earlier podcast.
As for Star Wars resources, I would recommend in addition to what the hosts suggested some of the resource material of the D6 Star Wars role playing game. They have entire sectors of space mapped out (especially in the lesser covered ground of a few of the Galaxy Guides, like Tramp Freighters and the Elrood Sector) which don't rely on the PCs initially being with the rebellion to make the adventures interesting. Basically the sectors are set up as their own little worlds with adventure ideas and the characters can interact with the various peoples how they choose. While the same thing can be said for worlds made up for Traveler, the Star Wars ones do carry the flavor of the Star Wars universe with them.
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Post by ericfromnj on Mar 17, 2015 10:10:24 GMT -8
Elrood Sector was actually in Planets of the Galaxy Volume 3, not a Galaxy Guide. Sorry.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
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Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Mar 17, 2015 22:23:59 GMT -8
Of course, as Stork pointed out, "Yes and" comes from impro, and there it's used for the game equivalent of "adding complications" to the story. But in impro you get a feel for when the scenario is complex enough and stop adding stuff so that the sketch can reach some sort of conclusion.
So, using yes and in games, there's a thing about timing. I tend to yes and more in the early stages of the game and I TRY not to in the final stages. I say "try" because I tend to be pretty yes andy anyway. And I've noticed that by yes anding at the climax, I have made endings a bit too easy and anti-climatic
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Post by D6-StringDM on Mar 17, 2015 23:16:12 GMT -8
The concept of story beats was explained by Gary Gygax in the late 70s, when he connected Aristotle Poetics with the game. Then, later, came the backlash from the counter-culture hipsters connecting the use of Aristotle Poetics to railroading, and the resulting birth of the term sandbox, the disrespect towards Gygax as a designer, the hamfisted 3x rules, at satra. Interesting to see the pendulum swing back.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Post by fredrix on Mar 17, 2015 23:57:10 GMT -8
I've never seen Aristotlian Poetics criticised as Railroading in games. I'd be interested in your sources for that assertion. My story-beat guru las long been Robin D Laws, with Fengshui in the 90s, then HeroQuest for Greg Stafford, and more recently Hillfolk. (And of course the more literary analysis of games, Hamlet's Hit Points)
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Post by hoseirrob on Mar 18, 2015 11:57:43 GMT -8
Reading a book called "Of Dice and Men" that features some of the early days of D&D. It was interesting to me the very different ways that Gygax and Arneson ran their games.
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Post by ericfromnj on Mar 18, 2015 12:09:51 GMT -8
I will have to check that book out. Also I totally approve your dislike of IPAs, Rob.
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Post by mook on Mar 18, 2015 13:54:45 GMT -8
I've never seen Aristotlian Poetics criticised as Railroading in games. I'd be interested in your sources for that assertion. Gygax is quoted as writing the below here in 1979, but there's no specific attribution: "At the risk of claiming too much for the game, I have lately taken to likening the whole to Aristotle’s Poetics, carrying the analogy to even more ridiculous heights by stating that each Dungeon Master uses the rules to become a playwright (hopefully of Shakespearean stature), scripting only plot outlines, however, and the players become the Thespians. Before incredulity slackens so as to allow the interviewer to become hostile, I hasten to add that the analogy applies only to the basic parts of the whole pastime, not to the actual merits of D&D, its DMs, or players. If you consider the game, the analogy is actually quite apt. DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is like none other in that it requires the game master to create all or part of a fantasy world. Players must then become personae in this place and interact with the other populace. This is, of course, a tall order for all concerned — rules, DM, and players alike."
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
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Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Mar 18, 2015 14:01:01 GMT -8
Cheers mook, but I knew Gygax had said something about poetics, what I was curious about was a source for D6-stringDM's comment: I don't think I've ever read anything like that.
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Post by joecrak on Mar 18, 2015 16:15:48 GMT -8
In regards to the Star Wars game question.
He mentioned he was already running Age of Rebellion which is the same system as Edge of the Empire?
You already have the materials and the dice, use that system, you would already know it.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 19, 2015 3:33:52 GMT -8
Re: Star Wars - I think it was less to do with system and more to do with adventure ideas. Short of hacking Steve Jacksons Ideas Server in China, when confronted by this sort of block, I'd suggest a make a 'setting' and let the story emerge from the play. ie: a sandbox. Re: Aristotle Poetics - I believe the question was how it relates to railroading and how it's rejection bequeaths us the sandbox. Re 'Yes, and' - thank you thank you thank you for clarifying it's use and implementation. I'd stress one other caveat, which I think I recall you mentioning but I feel needs to be made explicit : the 'and' doesn't have to be a positive eg: "yes, and you fall 500ft down the cliff face" Aaron
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Post by joecrak on Mar 19, 2015 5:52:20 GMT -8
Re: Star Wars - I think it was less to do with system and more to do with adventure ideas. Short of hacking Steve Jacksons Ideas Server in China, when confronted by this sort of block, I'd suggest a make a 'setting' and let the story emerge from the play. ie: a sandbox That may be so, but the Edge of the Empire character creation rules, provide the GM with ample adventure hooks, in the form of the obligation the characters have.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 19, 2015 6:46:17 GMT -8
Re: Star Wars - I think it was less to do with system and more to do with adventure ideas. Short of hacking Steve Jacksons Ideas Server in China, when confronted by this sort of block, I'd suggest a make a 'setting' and let the story emerge from the play. ie: a sandbox That may be so, but the Edge of the Empire character creation rules, provide the GM with ample adventure hooks, in the form of the obligation the characters have. Exactly - if he has a 'setting', ie: some NPC's and some key locations ready before character gen, then between that and the character gen hooks the beginnings of a campaign would almost write itself . Cast your net wide - don't compartmentalise. Aaron
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Mar 20, 2015 10:18:58 GMT -8
I'm in total agreement with Stu's premise of modifiers applied for failing fear checks (or equivalents). It takes the fear that the character should feel, and applies it to the player (fear of character death or inefficiency). Similar to using Jenga in Dread, you've made the tension and fear a physical / player fear that applies to the character / game. It won't always work for all players and games, obviously. In the same way Jenga wouldn't work playing online, or with players who are klutzes and just feel too disadvantaged using those mechanics, whereas dice are more agnostic... except in the case of Stork apparently.
I'm also a big fan of letting players know how various thoughts and situations are affecting them on a subliminal level ("you feel like something is off", "you feel fearful", "you are confused by his statement")... as long as you aren't telling them how to react to that information. It is a line that is easy to cross and go to far, but it's one of those tools that helps immerse the player into the world in some way. Especially useful if you are playing towards that PCs stats or character in some form... a low-INT PC would be confused by someone speaking with large words, or a low-CHA PC who has low confidence and social skills or a "Paranoid" style disad may be thinking that a room is giving them a weird vibe (even if that's not the case), and it's your job as the GM to sometimes give them those nudges (when they forget to do it themselves), so why not. Again, as long as you don't tell them HOW to react to that information.
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Post by greatwyrm on Mar 20, 2015 16:04:34 GMT -8
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