thegrimace
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: Anything
Currently Playing: D&D 5.0, Pathfinder, L5R
Currently Running: L5R
Favorite Species of Monkey: Evil
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Post by thegrimace on May 20, 2015 14:16:02 GMT -8
A couple random questions for the learned wise douchebags of the Happy Jacks forum: 1) Do you have any advice on how to end up with prisoners left for questioning in L5R? It's certainly not impossible, but there seems to be more issues with it in this milieu than in many others (examples of issues below). - Almost all weapons are intentionally quite deadly, and even things like the disarm maneuver deal full damage, so in most cases the party seems likely to kill far more easily than disarm/subdue. Perhaps I just need to strongly suggest someone invest in Jujitsu.
- While certainly not all would do this, many prospective enemies would presumably follow the "death before dishonor" path. Examples include the peasant bandit who will be executed for carrying arms anyway, so why not fight to the death? or various clan samurai or ninja-types who would rather die than betray their clan/mission.
- Even if you manage to force someone to surrender, the party may feel obligated to kill them
- Even if you think you can disarm someone without killing them, it's really hard to do so (need Void 3 and to make 3 raises)
Do you have any good suggestions? perhaps have the enemies make honor or willpower rolls when the tides of battle have turned and lay down arms?
Would you allow for perhaps taking penalties to damage on a disarm attempt in lieu of some of the void/raises? i.e. a Void 2 character could try to disarm but with a -5 or -10 penalty to damage and only 2 raises to hit?
Would tackling a dirty peasant bandit with your Jujitsu skill be dishonorable?
2) Do you have suggestions for players playing courtiers in combat? I've heard the "take a few points of kyujutsu and increase reflex" suggestion, and frankly would probably go that way myself since it increases your otherwise low armor TN, and gives you a way to contribute from afar, but if the player doesn't want to go down that route?
It's certainly not as big a deal in L5R since combat is much faster than many other systems, but it still feels a little awkward for all the Bushi to be super excited while the Courtier basically stands there saying "can I etiquette someone?"
I suppose you might be able to try using a lore skill to point out weaknesses (i.e. give a free raise), or use deception to bluff an enemy into distraction. Or maybe you could go so far as to just stand off to the side and compose an epic poem about the battle while civilized combatants courteously ignore you because you're not carrying a katana.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on May 20, 2015 22:00:58 GMT -8
Do your GMCs alway shoot past crippled and down thresholds straight to death? While a player might insist on trying to carry on when at TN+20 or TN+40 (!) my GMCs always pull out of the fight then. They can commit seppuku after questioning (thouh they might need help).
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Post by the0gekko0state on May 21, 2015 9:37:12 GMT -8
I think I need more info before I post an answer.
For question one, how large is the combat is it mass battle or small skirmishes?
For question two, how often do you have court events?
In other worlds I need some more background. I've got some books to check (have everything 4e) and can try and find some stuff to help.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on May 21, 2015 9:59:33 GMT -8
Taking prisoners is problematic. It is not considered proper to take other samurai prisoner (except for shugenja). Capturing samurai denies them an honourable death, shaming both the captive and the captor.
However, it also depends on the situation. Non-samurai can be taken prisoner, because they have no honour. Criminals, regardless of station, should be taken prisoner in order to face justice (and because they do not deserve an honourable death).
Mechanically, while the combat system is deadly, remember that the players choose which dice to keep. They don't have to keep the highest rolled values. They can deliberately inflict less damage if they wish, and should be encouraged to do so when the situation warrants it. In duel to first blood, you wouldn't want to keep the exploding damage die, for example. Don't forget shugenja spells as well; something like Grasp Of Earth can easily capture an opponent.
Kyujutsu for courtiers is a valid combat tactic, but there are others.
Who says you have to damage opponents? Taking ranks in Defence is very useful; it makes you harder to hit in Full Defence and ties up an enemy, while the bushi and shugenja clean house. Bear in mind you can spend a Void Point to swap your Initiative score with another willing target for the duration of the skirmish, so while you're in Full Defence, swap your Initiative score with a bushi or shugenja who storked their Initiative roll.
Use your skills. If you're not engaged, you could be looking at how you can affect the battle in other ways. A lot of courtiers have Investigation, which combined with the Notice emphasis should hopefully mean you are the early warning system for your gang. The Perform skill, in Oratory, Song or Storytelling, could affect your opponents morale (GM permitting, maybe a -1K0 on all enemy skill rolls for one round). Ikoma Bards pointing out the flaws in your opponents attack formation (based on a Lore:History roll perhaps), allows the GM to give your gang a boost (maybe a +1K0 to Battle or combat rolls for one round). Yoritomo courtiers could try Intimidation (maybe a rank 1 Fear effect for one round). Sincerity could even be used. "Good effort, Mirumoto-san! You almost got Akodo-san there!" What about Battle? It doesn't have to be a bushi-only skill, and at Rank 5 it adds 5 to your Initiative score (see above for using a high Initiative). As a GM, I would reward the players for inventive use of skills in some way, even if it was a little bit outside the rules. I wouldn't go too crazy with it, but a little reward here and there would be good form.
Look at school techniques. The Ikoma Bard can increase another's Glory, making them a bit more intimidating. The GM might allow the use of the Ikoma Bard's rank 3 technique during battle, instead of before it. Why not, right? I feel that if a player comes up with an inventive and entertaining way of applying skills or school techniques, then the Rule of Cool should and probably should be applied.
Admittedly, by choosing to play a courtier, you essentially choose to fight on a different battlefield, so the GM should try and reflect that by giving the courtiers some chances to shine outside of combat, which is after all the bushi's turf. Of course, there's always the Lion's Shadow school to give you best of both worlds.....
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grimm
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 28
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Post by grimm on May 21, 2015 10:17:27 GMT -8
Couple of things regarding taking prisoners:
1. Roll and keep system does NOT require you to keep the highest dice. You always choose which dice you keep. Ergo, a damage roll may choose to keep less damage voluntarily when trying not to kill prospective prisoners. (In especially gritty games, I require one raise called for 'mitigating damage', but by rules as written this is not required.)
2. Peasants may be executed for carrying a weapon, but if he offers to trade information for his life then samurai of honour are required to abide by any deal they make. (Never forget that honour losses for breaking your word, even to a criminal, are extremely high for most clans, and in Rokugan "pretending to look the other way" is just as big an honour loss. Sincerity requires that all samurai act with the intention of obeying bushido, even when it is inconvenient.) Peasants are almost always willing to bargain in good faith with samurai, especially if their life is on the line.
3. Jiujutsu is never dishonourable when used in service to the Clan and Empire. Generally, I have ruled that if people of a total strength equal to double your strength can control you in a grapple for two rounds, they can pin you down and secure you to the point you can't escape. That means a Strength 4 Bushi can pin the average peasant or a weak bandit, and a couple of bushi can pin most people. After that, take them to a Magistrate, and let the Magistrate extract the confessions you require.
As to the second matter:
1. The Battle Skill or the Tactician Advantage can both provide an avenue for courtiers to take part in combat as a "leader" rather than as a fighter. The Art of War is almost as widely studied by courtiers as it is by bushi.
2. The Intimitation Skill or the Courtier (Manipulation) skill could be used to create (small) Fear Effects against opposing bad guys. By informing them about the pedigree of the Heroes they face could potentially be very demoralizing (or ever terrifying) to groups such as bandits or peasants. Fear Effects create MASSIVE penalties, so this can be a huge factor in winning and losing a fight. I would suggest that if you plan to go this route, you make both the Fear Effect's strength and the number of people it can target based be based on the number of raises made.
3. Courtiers who often travel with bushi would be wise to learn a little jiujutsu in order to defend themselves. Weapons such as War-fans, Jitte(knives), Bo Staff, Tonfa are all fit weapons for a courtier to wield if they aren't trained properly in the use of a sword, without any risk of shame. Sasumata and Sodegarami are also often-overlooked weapon options which can solve both of your problems at once - taking prisoners and giving the courtier something to do.
4. The Enemy knows that courtiers are supposed to be sitting ducks. Have a couple of goons trying to capture THAT guy while they rest are fighting the bushi. Killing the courtier is a waste, after all - just as the heroes can get a lot of value from a prisoner, so can the baddies. The courtier will be spending his rounds actively evading or grappling with the baddies while the PCs fight to stay alive. (Just don't over-do it.)
5. Try to create combats that have a second element other than fighting. Take a pitch-dark cave, for example. Bushi take a (-5) to their attack rolls for having a torch in their off hand (per the duel-wielding penalty), and many good weapons are two-handed. Shugs risk lighting their scrolls on fire while holding a torch. That makes the Courtier the defacto torch carrier in combat. And since a torch only throws light about 15ft, and outside of that the Bushi are fighting blind... he has to make choices about who to stand next to, and the bushi have the make choices about guading him. (Doubly true if the enemy is Goblins or Oni-Spawn who can see in the dark.) Finding options like this to keep the Courtier relevant is part of the GMs planning process.
Another favourite of mine is to have a combat running at the same time as a time sensitive issue, like disarming a bomb or a rapidly-closing stone doorway. If the Bushi stop fighting to deal with the issue there are going to be baddies all over them, so it tends to fall to the courtiers to deal with the problem while the Bushi handle the fighting. This doesn't always work, but when it does it's action-movie-esque.
6. Sometimes, let the courtier be sidelined but keep him/her near the action. When an ally goes down or an enemy makes a mistake, ship the courtier a note that suggests that they could prevent this coup-de-grace or take advantage of the enemies distraction, if they can think of a way to do it.
Busho are expected to fight. It's glorious, but not especially heroic. That's less true for the courtier, and it makes the stakes when they do it a lot higher, since if the enemy was ignoring them up until now they're going to stop doing that now. It comes with risk, but the reward can mean saving the life of an ally or taking down the enemy general with a well-aimed pie or unexpected carpet-pull.
6. Always remember to remind a player who plans to make a courtier that it is not only YOUR job as the GM to provide things for them to do in combat. It is also their choice to be a participant, or to build a PC who is inclined to participate. If they choose to build a mousy, timid courtier who is inclined to hide under tables, they DON'T get to complain when that's what they end up doing when combat pops off. ^_^
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thegrimace
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: Anything
Currently Playing: D&D 5.0, Pathfinder, L5R
Currently Running: L5R
Favorite Species of Monkey: Evil
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Post by thegrimace on May 26, 2015 8:31:58 GMT -8
I think I need more info before I post an answer. For question one, how large is the combat is it mass battle or small skirmishes? For question two, how often do you have court events? In other worlds I need some more background. I've got some books to check (have everything 4e) and can try and find some stuff to help. I'll answer these, though I already appreciate the various good suggestions from yojimbohawkins and grimm. At the moment I'm generally concerned with small skirmishes. As for court events, this is my first time GMing L5R, so I've started them at the tail end of a pretty bare-bones winter court session but shortly they'll be venturing out into the province and presumably be away from official court functions for quite a while. That being said, there will be lots of opportunity to have social encounters. So far we've had 2 combats across 4 sessions of play, with probably 75-80% of the play time as RP of some sort.
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Post by the0gekko0state on May 26, 2015 10:10:50 GMT -8
Yeah they had some good suggestion and not sure if I can top those.
Small skirmishes they could take "Prisoners" because they might need to take them in for the daimyo to punish them. That is if they are in the wrong when attacking the PCs. There is still a feeling that you shouldn't be taken in combat but I think it's more towards large scale war. I samurai wouldn't just through his life away either. It would be a waste to his daimyo. It's kind of a double edged sword on one hand you want to fight to the death but on the other you don't want to upset his daimyo. Also you don't want as a PC to go around killing a bunch of a daimyo's samurai or that daimyo well want to arrest you.
Well I'm glad to see it's not a slaughter fest. The thing with L5R is there is always needs for a courtier. May it be dealing with boarder patrols, local law enforcement, local daimyo, important samurai, or other important people. S courtier should always be ready to have tea with someone. A fight breaks out and everyone is arrested, it may be up to the courtier to have tea with the daimyo or watch captain and try to smooth things out. In combat they could try to talk the enemy, unless of course they are shadowlands creatures, into not attacking or ending it short. On page 136 of the core book there is a little sidebar about using the courtier skill in play. I would use it here. Have the NPC roll etiquette against the PC's courtier skill to try and influence him.
I hope this make sense and helps some.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on May 27, 2015 13:10:36 GMT -8
Sword and Fan & Imperial Archives have some great articles on creating and playing courtier characters. Definitely worth a look.
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