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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2012 11:22:22 GMT -8
Max, The reason you would scale DR is because damage and hit points are still being scaled by level. It is, of course, possible to remove all of the damage and hit point scaling too but that moves beyond the AC vs. DR discussion and into a full blown new game system. Yeah! You could make a game where everyone has 3 hit points and their ability to avoid getting hit (we'll call it parry) and their ability to withstand damage (we'll call it toughness) could go up by various means in the game ... and then to make it exciting I think we should add a benefit system (we'll call it bennies) ... Oh wait ... never mind. JiB That sounds great! How well do you think a group of 4-5 adventurers would do against a giant Dragon they met while delving in a Dungeon using that system? Noob Note: I have never played Traveller, Savage Worlds (except Deadlands/HOE), or any 'Bennie' system. Who knows; Maybe those things block dragon breath....
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 13, 2012 14:32:15 GMT -8
Yeah! You could make a game where everyone has 3 hit points and their ability to avoid getting hit (we'll call it parry) and their ability to withstand damage (we'll call it toughness) could go up by various means in the game ... and then to make it exciting I think we should add a benefit system (we'll call it bennies) ... Oh wait ... never mind. JiB That sounds great! How well do you think a group of 4-5 adventurers would do against a giant Dragon they met while delving in a Dungeon using that system? Noob Note: I have never played Traveller, Savage Worlds (except Deadlands/HOE), or any 'Bennie' system. Who knows; Maybe those things block dragon breath.... Heh heh heh ... A dragon in Savage Worlds is f'ing nasty ... They shoot through schools ... JiB
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Apr 14, 2012 10:32:40 GMT -8
Firstly - I did not intend to single out D&D in my example (but I did mention it so I can see how you could get that impression). The numbers I was using were, how shall I say this, pulled from my rectum. They were examples - and simplified ones at that. I was merely trying to demonstrate the fundamental mechnical difference between DR and AC. I suggested active defences as a possible substitute for AC instead of trying to shoehorn DR in where it might not fit. Secondly, why - oh why - would you scale the DR of armour with.... anything? (I'm assuming level a this point) In my example I stated that a scaling DR would not be any good - as the only difference between a scaling DR and AC is which hand you are stroking your math peen with. Some like the left and some like the right but it is the same mechanic whatever you call it. This to me is no change at all. Plate armor is +8 AC +6 Godplate armor is +20 AC If that isn't scaled, then what is? ALso when you talk about AC vs DR, you are specifically talking about D&D, as those are specific D&D terms. There are very few attrition systems nowadays, and looking at damage is a function of time is something that really only applies to attrition based systems, like D&D. Discussing numbers without looking at a specific system really is futile. What system were you specifically discussing, or are we just going to pick and choose our own numbers so we can compare apples to oranges all day long? Finally, the AC vs DR discussion, as I said in my initial post, is one of simulation. Stu does not like it, because the abstraction does not make sense to him. I was showing that you can get the same mathematical effect from either system, when you are using an attrition system looking at DOT. The people who are against AC are not against it because of the mathematical effect, its the feeling of the abstraction.
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Apr 14, 2012 15:49:38 GMT -8
I remember being in Tappy's game and his armor was not a static DR so I was wondering Tappy how you allocated these numbers you were using. I recall cloth armor the mage was wearing was a static 3 and i had a d6+3 and the tank had a d10+3. Being a bard I was wearing leather if I recall correctly, but I was wondering what numbers you were running to say these dice were fair. Sure thing! The characters were level 13, and i was using inherent bonuses, which gives a +3 to AC, which I tranferred to armor. Level 13 monsters have the following possible damages Very High At-will - 32 Very High Limited - 48 High At-will - 27 High Limited - 44 Medium At-will - 22 Medium Limited - 39 Low At-will - 18 Low Limited - 29 Very low At-will - 12 Very low Limited - 23 Very high damage is for attacks that have a requirement or penalty, such as a brute attack that has a low attack number, or a lurker who requires combat advantage. High Damage is for artillery, controller-ish lurkers and skirmishers that are "glass cannons" Medium damage is for Soldiers and skirmishers Low damage is for controllers or artillery melee attacks Very low damage is for controllers who's ancillary effects are extremely powerful. Defenders tend to have a hit point range at level 13 of around 100 hit points. Leaders and Lurkers tend to have around 85 Controllers tend to have around 70 Armor is the randomizer for the static damage of the monsters. Plate armor gives a d12 armor roll (average 5.5) Scale gives a d10 (average 4.5) Chain gives a d8 (average 3.5) Hide gives a d6 (Average 2.5) Leather gives a d4 (average 0) Cloth gives none. Sheilds give their bonus to REF defense and to the Armor roll. In our group we had Defender - d12+5 Leader - d8+3 Controller - +3 the max amount of time a monster should live is about 4 rounds so that is one limited and 3 at wills This gives us .5((L+3W)-4A) L=limited damage, W=At will, A=average armor roll. So a high damage monster should deal around 42 damage to the defender before it dies. That same monster is very dangerous to the leader - dealing 50 damage over it's short lifespan, which would put the leader into bloodied. The high damage monster becomes extremely dangerous to a Controller, dealing around 57 damage, which takes the controller within an inch of his life. two limited high damage hits will kill a controller. This is important, because it makes the defender feel like his work is very important, and gives the leader important work to keep the defender alive, and the controller has to work to keep the monsters de-buffed and around the defender, not the leader. We were missing our fourth, so I had to reduce the number of monsters in each encounter, because missing the striker means that the monster would be swinging more times... which is bad. So my formula is that a defender should be able to take 4 rounds of one monster and be just above bloodied, a leader and Striker should be able to take 4 rounds and be just below bloodied, and a controller should take 4 rounds of combat and be just above dead when against a high damage monster, and scale up or down from there. Another big attempt with this system is to make hits more dramatic. for example a high damage limited will bloody a controller with one hit! When hits are this dramatic that game starts to feel less like an attrition system, and gains more of a twitch feel to it. This also applies to the characters. Hit points of all monsters is reduced. I set it up so a brute and soldier should be able to be killed by a striker in 4 rounds, a Skirmisher or lurker should be killed by a soldier in 4 rounds, and artillery and controllers should be killed by a leader in 4 rounds. this also means that a Soldier should be able to be killed in one round by and entire party. I want either one monster dead and/or one character being bloodied a turn. My target is for combats to last 4-6 rounds, period. At the end of the combat at least 3-4 characters should have had to use at least one healing surge, and hopefully the defender has used more than one (that is why they get so many). The effect of this is a feeling of real danger, especially when the players realize that this is all on their dice roll, no fudging allowed. I thought is was the most fun D&D game I had ever run, and I'm glad you liked it.
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 15, 2012 8:43:14 GMT -8
Firstly - I did not intend to single out D&D in my example (but I did mention it so I can see how you could get that impression). The numbers I was using were, how shall I say this, pulled from my rectum. They were examples - and simplified ones at that. I was merely trying to demonstrate the fundamental mechnical difference between DR and AC. I suggested active defences as a possible substitute for AC instead of trying to shoehorn DR in where it might not fit. Secondly, why - oh why - would you scale the DR of armour with.... anything? (I'm assuming level a this point) In my example I stated that a scaling DR would not be any good - as the only difference between a scaling DR and AC is which hand you are stroking your math peen with. Some like the left and some like the right but it is the same mechanic whatever you call it. This to me is no change at all. Plate armor is +8 AC +6 Godplate armor is +20 AC If that isn't scaled, then what is? ALso when you talk about AC vs DR, you are specifically talking about D&D, as those are specific D&D terms. There are very few attrition systems nowadays, and looking at damage is a function of time is something that really only applies to attrition based systems, like D&D. Discussing numbers without looking at a specific system really is futile. What system were you specifically discussing, or are we just going to pick and choose our own numbers so we can compare apples to oranges all day long? Finally, the AC vs DR discussion, as I said in my initial post, is one of simulation. Stu does not like it, because the abstraction does not make sense to him. I was showing that you can get the same mathematical effect from either system, when you are using an attrition system looking at DOT. The people who are against AC are not against it because of the mathematical effect, its the feeling of the abstraction. This matches with my somewhat more anecdotal investigation of the variant rules for Pathfinder, and this is because (imho) d20 is at it's heart an attrition system regardless of which label you put on it (D&D, Pathfinder ... whatever). So no matter how you decide whether damage made it to the character you still have the same attrition system underlying it. To really change it you'd have to change the fundamental mechanics of the system and that's not worth the effort (other systems already provide that) and you'd be changing to another basic system. Cheers, JiB
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Apr 15, 2012 9:46:46 GMT -8
Plate armor is +8 AC +6 Godplate armor is +20 AC If that isn't scaled, then what is? ALso when you talk about AC vs DR, you are specifically talking about D&D, as those are specific D&D terms. There are very few attrition systems nowadays, and looking at damage is a function of time is something that really only applies to attrition based systems, like D&D. Discussing numbers without looking at a specific system really is futile. What system were you specifically discussing, or are we just going to pick and choose our own numbers so we can compare apples to oranges all day long? Finally, the AC vs DR discussion, as I said in my initial post, is one of simulation. Stu does not like it, because the abstraction does not make sense to him. I was showing that you can get the same mathematical effect from either system, when you are using an attrition system looking at DOT. The people who are against AC are not against it because of the mathematical effect, its the feeling of the abstraction. This matches with my somewhat more anecdotal investigation of the variant rules for Pathfinder, and this is because (imho) d20 is at it's heart an attrition system regardless of which label you put on it (D&D, Pathfinder ... whatever). So no matter how you decide whether damage made it to the character you still have the same attrition system underlying it. To really change it you'd have to change the fundamental mechanics of the system and that's not worth the effort (other systems already provide that) and you'd be changing to another basic system. Cheers, JiB QFT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2012 17:56:26 GMT -8
Max, The reason you would scale DR is because damage and hit points are still being scaled by level. It is, of course, possible to remove all of the damage and hit point scaling too but that moves beyond the AC vs. DR discussion and into a full blown new game system. Yeah! You could make a game where everyone has 3 hit points and their ability to avoid getting hit (we'll call it parry) and their ability to withstand damage (we'll call it toughness) could go up by various means in the game ... and then to make it exciting I think we should add a benefit system (we'll call it bennies) ... Oh wait ... never mind. JiB Just make sure the bennies system is sexist.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 2:06:19 GMT -8
Iron Heroes, my favourite d20 system, did armor soak pretty well, it wasn't high enough to absorb entire hits but it made a difference in the attrition race (from 1d3 soak on a leather armor to 1d8 on a plate mail iirc), there was even a class that got his class ability tokens from soaking damage with his armor. It did however have a scaling base defense bonus in the place of AC.
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 16, 2012 6:44:33 GMT -8
Yeah! You could make a game where everyone has 3 hit points and their ability to avoid getting hit (we'll call it parry) and their ability to withstand damage (we'll call it toughness) could go up by various means in the game ... and then to make it exciting I think we should add a benefit system (we'll call it bennies) ... Oh wait ... never mind. JiB Just make sure the bennies system is sexist. *facepalm* I am NOT even going to get into that argument. I wanted to but I'm not going to. JiB
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Post by joegun on Apr 17, 2012 11:52:36 GMT -8
That sounds great! How well do you think a group of 4-5 adventurers would do against a giant Dragon they met while delving in a Dungeon using that system? Noob Note: I have never played Traveller, Savage Worlds (except Deadlands/HOE), or any 'Bennie' system. Who knows; Maybe those things block dragon breath.... Heh heh heh ... A dragon in Savage Worlds is f'ing nasty ... They shoot through schools ... JiB I thought the same thing JIB. Until my son slid in on his back and one shot a dragon with his bow. He is 5 and got the initiative with a Joker. I asked him what he wanted to do. He knew the dragon was crouched above the cave entrance waiting for them to enter ( a successful notice check with a raise got him that ). He tells me, I want to run in, slide on my back and fire an arrow into his eye! I look at him a little dumbfounded and say ok, well -2 for MAP for running and shooting, -2 for shooting off your back/on the run, -6 for a small target/head shot. So Caleb -10 on your shot good? He smiles excited to roll his dice. He made the best archer he could based off of hawkeye in the avengers. So he had a d10 in shooting, still going to take a lot of luck. So he rolls a 23 after exploding. So yeah even with the -10 he gets a 13, which is a raise over the 4. Ok lets move to damage. I'm not to worried he is shooting regular arrows. He gets a +4 damage for hitting the eye, and a +1d6 for the raise, but still 3d6+4 is still pretty safe territory for me, maybe he will just shake the dragon.......46 damage.....26 points or 6 raises on the hit...I my dragons 2 bennies to try and soak, knowing that if I fall incap, they are just going to finish him off anyway....I fail. So yup, my 5 year old in his second real game session killed a dragon, as a Novice PC with 3xp. For the record the dragon was supposed to scare them away and become a major plot point..... o well
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Post by tappy on Apr 17, 2012 12:39:42 GMT -8
Heh heh heh ... A dragon in Savage Worlds is f'ing nasty ... They shoot through schools ... JiB I thought the same thing JIB. Until my son slid in on his back and one shot a dragon with his bow. He is 5 and got the initiative with a Joker. I asked him what he wanted to do. He knew the dragon was crouched above the cave entrance waiting for them to enter ( a successful notice check with a raise got him that ). He tells me, I want to run in, slide on my back and fire an arrow into his eye! I look at him a little dumbfounded and say ok, well -2 for MAP for running and shooting, -2 for shooting off your back/on the run, -6 for a small target/head shot. So Caleb -10 on your shot good? He smiles excited to roll his dice. He made the best archer he could based off of hawkeye in the avengers. So he had a d10 in shooting, still going to take a lot of luck. So he rolls a 23 after exploding. So yeah even with the -10 he gets a 13, which is a raise over the 4. Ok lets move to damage. I'm not to worried he is shooting regular arrows. He gets a +4 damage for hitting the eye, and a +1d6 for the raise, but still 3d6+4 is still pretty safe territory for me, maybe he will just shake the dragon.......46 damage.....26 points or 6 raises on the hit...I my dragons 2 bennies to try and soak, knowing that if I fall incap, they are just going to finish him off anyway....I fail. So yup, my 5 year old in his second real game session killed a dragon, as a Novice PC with 3xp. For the record the dragon was supposed to scare them away and become a major plot point..... o well This is why I prefer not to use attrition based systems. Epic win!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 13:12:32 GMT -8
Strangely, the XP system of Savage Worlds allows this sort of result. If a Novice kills an Epic baddie, they would get 1-5 points. A nice bonus, but nothing unbalancing.
If a first level DnD player one-shotted a 15th level Dragon, they would get multiple levels, thus disrupting the game balance.
I see how AC, Attrition Damage, Scaling XP requirements, and Power Creep, and marathon battles are all co-dependants in our TSR-spawned grandchild.
The problem is not AC or DR. It is in its genes, like Palladium.
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 17, 2012 14:34:14 GMT -8
Heh heh heh ... A dragon in Savage Worlds is f'ing nasty ... They shoot through schools ... JiB I thought the same thing JIB. Until my son slid in on his back and one shot a dragon with his bow. He is 5 and got the initiative with a Joker. I asked him what he wanted to do. He knew the dragon was crouched above the cave entrance waiting for them to enter ( a successful notice check with a raise got him that ). He tells me, I want to run in, slide on my back and fire an arrow into his eye! I look at him a little dumbfounded and say ok, well -2 for MAP for running and shooting, -2 for shooting off your back/on the run, -6 for a small target/head shot. So Caleb -10 on your shot good? He smiles excited to roll his dice. He made the best archer he could based off of hawkeye in the avengers. So he had a d10 in shooting, still going to take a lot of luck. So he rolls a 23 after exploding. So yeah even with the -10 he gets a 13, which is a raise over the 4. Ok lets move to damage. I'm not to worried he is shooting regular arrows. He gets a +4 damage for hitting the eye, and a +1d6 for the raise, but still 3d6+4 is still pretty safe territory for me, maybe he will just shake the dragon.......46 damage.....26 points or 6 raises on the hit...I my dragons 2 bennies to try and soak, knowing that if I fall incap, they are just going to finish him off anyway....I fail. So yup, my 5 year old in his second real game session killed a dragon, as a Novice PC with 3xp. For the record the dragon was supposed to scare them away and become a major plot point..... o well That is so totally f'ing awesome. That's the sort of thing as a gamer he will remember for EVER!!! JiB
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Apr 17, 2012 15:14:41 GMT -8
The problem is not AC or DR. It is in its genes, like Palladium. QFT!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 15:59:56 GMT -8
Please excuse my ignorance. What is QFT!?
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