fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Sept 5, 2015 2:07:41 GMT -8
I wonder if this might be a topic for discussion, especially as Stu is thinking about it right now for MoT. What got me thinking about this was Mongoose's recent release of a beta version of their second edition of Traveller. Their blog post on the subject says "The last edition rested heavily on the minimalist approach of Classic Traveller – the new edition has all the bells and whistles you expect from a modern RPG." Now I'm not looking at the finished product, but actually I think the new layout looks somewhat dated. When RPG books started going full colour, they went overboard on layout, printing on textured pages that were a pastiche of Medieval parchment, or with page edges (frames) that looked like PCB circuitry. Even companies that couldn't afford full colour printing filled the margins with frames, or added "watermarks" under the text that added nothing to readability (I'm looking at you White Wolf). So now in an attempt to look "modern" Mongoose has stuck a scratched-up hex texture under every page, and most top and bottom margins are filled with ... what, something metallic, with a glimpse of a starfield - are these meant to represent the most useless starship viewscreens ever? Some (but not all) boxouts a red Timex digital LED watch block caps on black. Who thought THAT was either: a) Modern? or b) a good idea? Other pages lay out blue headings and keylines over a deep black starfield, that sort of manage to look a bit like the Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - that these are probably the best looking in the book. Meanwhile - truly modern RPGs are heading towards minimalism. My favourite layouts are FATE and FAE, and Pelgrane's Night's Black Agents. Both are plain white pages, with detailing that enhances the navigation of the book - phonebook style chapter tabs on the out margin, and especially Fate's margin notes that tell you what page to go to, for other stuff mentioned on the page you are reading. Even D&D5 is has really subdued page textures. So I feel Mongoose is one step behind the pack here. But aesthetics is subjective, so what do other people think? Which books do you think have the best layout? What are shining exemplars and the your "don't do it like this" designs?
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 5, 2015 2:36:44 GMT -8
I really like the chapter tabs that HERO 6th ed. big blue books use.
One thing I do actually hate about big colourful hardcovers is that they are not very convenient. It's pretty awkward reading a big fuckoff rainbow tome on the peak hour train.
Doing this also makes them expensive. I don't know what the physical book of the new Traveller is going to cost, but I'm willing to bet it will be at least $50. Mongoose stuff is expensive as it is - and now they are going full colour.....
It's also a pain in the ass in play - I don't want to have to worry that some fuckwit is going to spill mountain dew on my $50 hardcover. Make 'em small and cheap I say. On that note, Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorers Edition is on my wishlist.....
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sbloyd
Supporter
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Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 5, 2015 5:40:46 GMT -8
My favourite recent layout is (you can probably guess) the Dresden Files books. The books suffer from being such a large project, but graphically I love them - carrying the appearance of an annotated manuscript covered in notes.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
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Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 5, 2015 6:42:53 GMT -8
Yep those Dresden files are such a fun read...but as a reference they can be a bit clunky. PDFs are just so damn easy to use on a tablet with personal note taking ability easy search functions. And of course being able to lug the whole library around in 2 pounds. But I will always gather my dead tree books around me at night and whisper sweet incantations to them because I've come to admit I am old.
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sbloyd
Supporter
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Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 5, 2015 7:00:40 GMT -8
Oh, definitely. Unfortunately a lot of the old white wolf stuff is just scans, and bad scans at that.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Sept 5, 2015 7:55:43 GMT -8
My favourite recent layout is (you can probably guess) the Dresden Files books. The books suffer from being such a large project, but graphically I love them - carrying the appearance of an annotated manuscript covered in notes. The Dresden Files is another interesting case - though frankly I could do without the "tea-stained" look of the pages, with the the marginalia you can see the root of Evil Hat's functional margin notes in Fate, which I love. And though I don!t like the look of the pages, I will admit there is more reason to add that texture to a game called "the Dresden Files" than the new Traveller's hex texture.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 5, 2015 8:05:03 GMT -8
I really wish I could google up a sample of how bad the old White Wolf stuff is. It puts all this to shame.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 5, 2015 8:14:17 GMT -8
Well there's this...(and its pretty wonderfully awful..except for that ONE image you just can't unsee...sheesh the 1990s were a dark, dark time) The Art of Vampire the Masquerade
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Sept 5, 2015 8:45:03 GMT -8
You mean Count Chocula?
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Sept 5, 2015 18:24:27 GMT -8
I wish more companies would produce a chargen only product For example, Mongoose Traveller, that game would be SO MUCH easier to do chargen in if I could hand each player a chargen packet. The last time I ran that we had 3 books for 6 players and 1 GM. Absolute nightmare. This time I'm running it with 4 players and myself as GM and we will have three books so it should be a lot easier. Still a chargen splat book would rock.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Sept 5, 2015 23:08:40 GMT -8
I wish more companies would produce a chargen only product For example, Mongoose Traveller, that game would be SO MUCH easier to do chargen in if I could hand each player a chargen packet. The last time I ran that we had 3 books for 6 players and 1 GM. Absolute nightmare. This time I'm running it with 4 players and myself as GM and we will have three books so it should be a lot easier. Still a chargen splat book would rock. Yeah, why does that not happen? At least in PDF form? I suppose it may be the publishers hope that every player will buy the full book. Apart from D&D Players handbook, can anyone thing of an example where a company actually does do this? *edit* actually, I just thought of one myself. Aces and Eights did a players book
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 6, 2015 1:01:16 GMT -8
I wish more companies would produce a chargen only product For example, Mongoose Traveller, that game would be SO MUCH easier to do chargen in if I could hand each player a chargen packet. The last time I ran that we had 3 books for 6 players and 1 GM. Absolute nightmare. This time I'm running it with 4 players and myself as GM and we will have three books so it should be a lot easier. Still a chargen splat book would rock. Yeah, why does that not happen? At least in PDF form? I suppose it may be the publishers hope that every player will buy the full book. Apart from D&D Players handbook, can anyone thing of an example where a company actually does do this? GURPS and HERO both do this but they don't count for obvious reasons And yes, I do think that Mongoose Traveller would benefit from being smaller format booklets. This isn't me saying "we need our little black books back DEEERRRRRRR" - because I never had them to miss them. It's me saying that smaller format, cheaper books are better in actual use (playing). With games that use UBER TOMES OF KNOWLEDGE the tendency is to just not use them during the game if you can avoid it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 23:35:59 GMT -8
I wish more companies would produce a chargen only product For example, Mongoose Traveller, that game would be SO MUCH easier to do chargen in if I could hand each player a chargen packet. The last time I ran that we had 3 books for 6 players and 1 GM. Absolute nightmare. This time I'm running it with 4 players and myself as GM and we will have three books so it should be a lot easier. Still a chargen splat book would rock. Yeah, why does that not happen? At least in PDF form? I suppose it may be the publishers hope that every player will buy the full book. Apart from D&D Players handbook, can anyone thing of an example where a company actually does do this? *edit* actually, I just thought of one myself. Aces and Eights did a players book This doesn't happen because character creation is meaningless without the rules to understand what those decisions mean. I'm reminded of the mote of sin AP when the toreador wants to use her discipline, only to find out it is based on performance (which the player didn't take). That's not even a good example, more correct would be taking low self control, not realizing they needed it to not frenzy (because those rules are in a book they don't own in this hypothetical).
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
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Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
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Favorite Species of Monkey: The ones that rhyme with donkey
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Post by mrmanowar on Sept 9, 2015 18:28:00 GMT -8
For an aesthetically pleasing and unique kind of layout, I prefer Shadows of Esteren. Otherwise I like it when books tend to tie together to thematically layout a line that gives it flavor. On the whole, it has to be readable and playable for me.
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