G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on Mar 27, 2012 12:12:21 GMT -8
Hey Forums! G.I. Joe here. As everyone who has ever played GURPS knows, the DEX stat is the ultimate stat. It controls melee weapons, ranged weapons, athletics, BS and BM, and even crafting. I think that this is a little unrealistic, especially the ranged weapon part. It doesn't make much sense that manual dexterity determines how well someone aims a gun. While it would for actually putting the sights on the target, actually lining up the target is PER. SO I intend to change the system where PER is not based on IQ, it is its own stat with a base of 10, and it costs +=10 points a level. PER now not only increases how well characters sense things, but how well they aim their guns, so it affects their ranged weapon stats. I am taking this from Fallout 3/ New Vegas. Where the guns skill is based on Perception. What are your thoughts Forums? Flame away!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2012 14:51:18 GMT -8
Sounds reasonable but I think it might be too cheap to max your gun skills like that (DX costs 20 per point). Also, I believe DX in this instance relates to reflexes, as well as manual dexterity, which you will need to make a quick 1-sec shot (or 2). For longer shots where you take some time to line up the shot there is the "Aim" maneuver, perhaps make that maneuver's bonus depend on PER along with weapon acc?
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Post by Stu Venable on Mar 27, 2012 15:01:58 GMT -8
I would think gun skill really should be based on a combination of PER and DX: I think you're right about PER, but I'd add DX for the motor skills necessary to line up the shot.
Additionally, the range would affect how much of either DX or per would be applied. Close range w/ a pistol? Probably more DX. Long range with a sniper rifle? More PER.
BTW, PER in 4th Ed is already a derived stat that can be purchased separately from IQ for +5 points per level.
In a game with lots of guns, however, I don't know if I would make the stat on which most combat is based cost 10 per level, when the other useful skills (DX and IQ) are at 20 per level.
Remember the point costs for Stat are determined by game balance, not simulationism.
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Post by Stu Venable on Mar 27, 2012 15:07:26 GMT -8
Our of curiosity, was there an incident or weird result that cause the thinking up of the houserule?
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G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on Mar 27, 2012 15:51:01 GMT -8
Thanks for the quick comments. The 10 points was simply because it seems like the number of skills effected by PER would be very few, instead of DEX, which, even with the ranged gone, would have a lot of skills. The number was not set-in-stone; 20 seemed like too much, and 5 was way too little. Maybe 15pts would be better? The reason that PER would be completely removed from IQ is because, again, IQ has a lot of skills associated with it. I can understand why GURPS does guns with DEX, but I feel that it just makes DEX too powerful.
I do like the idea for using different stats for different shots, but I run into the problem then of it taking twenty minutes to figure out if the roll hits or not, especially because I have a few players in my group who do not fully understand what their character sheets mean, even though I, and my best friend, have explained it to them multiple times, and so it is easier if is just 1 stat.
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Nolinquisitor
Journeyman Douchebag
Next Project: BrigadeCon, RPGS 2 Your Science Fantasy Toolkit Supersetting
Posts: 162
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, M&M, 7th Sea, Cypher System
Currently Playing: Playing is for the weak.
Currently Running: Cypher System, D&D 5E + Freeport
Favorite Species of Monkey: Dr. Zaius
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Post by Nolinquisitor on Mar 27, 2012 16:49:04 GMT -8
I'm gonna cite another game, M&M3rd edition, just for a moment. They dealt with the Dexterity problem found in many games with the addition of a new stat called Agility. In this game, Agility governs Dodge, Acrobatics, Movement, while Dexterity will govern Melee and Ranged attack, Crafting, etc. I really like this idea and it's kinda balanced. Other game like the old WEG Star Wars dealt with this in a similar fashion, with a stat called Technical, for crafting, piloting and such. Maybe Perception is not the solution here but maybe a new stat altogether like Agility or Technical. Just a thought.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 4:26:42 GMT -8
Indeed, PER doesn't have many skills tied to it, but straight PER rolls are very common, like spotting and listening. How about when you take a turn to aim, you substitute your PER for DX for that attack?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 23:21:11 GMT -8
I recommend you check out Tactical Shooting, if you haven't already. It increases the importance of Perception in gun combat by including rules for Situational Awareness. Also, it could make sense to switch Precision Aiming from an IQ-based roll to Per-based.
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Nolinquisitor
Journeyman Douchebag
Next Project: BrigadeCon, RPGS 2 Your Science Fantasy Toolkit Supersetting
Posts: 162
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, M&M, 7th Sea, Cypher System
Currently Playing: Playing is for the weak.
Currently Running: Cypher System, D&D 5E + Freeport
Favorite Species of Monkey: Dr. Zaius
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Post by Nolinquisitor on Mar 30, 2012 4:14:07 GMT -8
This talk got me into more thinking. I will just throw it here but be sure that I fully support personal customization in a game system. It's your game and you can do what you want. First, Perception is based on IQ, but only for first building the stat. After that you don't have to let it equal to IQ. You can lower it or raised it. It make sense to me that Perception is based on intellect, another way of saying that Perception is the way the brain "decode" the inputs from its senses. I often design smart villain for my games and very rarely I will leave the Perception score equal to IQ. I will always lowered it to a more realistic value like 10 or 12, unless I want my villain to be superperceptive. Thus I would suggest to start playing more independently with this stat. Just start Perception at 10 as you were saying. For the cost, since you are making it an active skills I would raise it to +/-10 points. That make sense. Secondly, and most importantly, there is another way to consider all this with just the GURPS rules as is. There is a small paragraph on how on to use skills with different attributes. There's nothing in GURPS forcing you to always demand a DX-based Gun skill roll. Sometimes you can ask for Per-based Gun roll (if it's based on situational awareness), for HT-based roll (if your guy is wounded and is experiencing intense pain), for ST-based rolls (if the weapon is super heavy or unbalanced), etc. And that is for all the skills. I'm in favor that most of the time, combat skills are based on "hand-eye coordination", a function of DX, but there is no need for that to be always the case. I have done this several times in my games and it is a good way to throw a curve ball at the talented genius with DX 18, Per 10 and 4 points in his skill. In these situation, the hard ass veteran with 18 points in his skill and Per 15 will perform more that the genius. Just a thought.
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Post by whutaguy on Apr 1, 2012 2:37:54 GMT -8
I think in a game where gun combat is this important, your PCs will all be named EagleEye McSpazz. The players are not going to bother with dex at this point but sink their points into PER.
Gurps 3e included a rule for higher intelligence raising your gun skills, IIRC +1 for 12 and +2 for 13 or better. I'm not sure in 4e kept this (Aside: 4e is much better, but I like it far less).
As my helpful input, I would suggest making a PER role for any shot over say 10 hexes to assess range, crosswind, relative target speed, altitude and slope, whatever and apply a penalty to equal to the margin of error (and possibly a bonus for margin of success).
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Nolinquisitor
Journeyman Douchebag
Next Project: BrigadeCon, RPGS 2 Your Science Fantasy Toolkit Supersetting
Posts: 162
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, M&M, 7th Sea, Cypher System
Currently Playing: Playing is for the weak.
Currently Running: Cypher System, D&D 5E + Freeport
Favorite Species of Monkey: Dr. Zaius
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Post by Nolinquisitor on Apr 1, 2012 6:27:32 GMT -8
I like the idea of a Perception roll for any far shot but then who will make the Perception check? Perception in GURPS is often rolled by the GM. Characters aren't omniscient and their senses are their only way of figuring out the world around them. If it's on the GM part, then we just have to roll Perception more often. If on the player side, I would hate to ask a player for a Perception check and then say: "Nah, you don't see that your target have changed position. You still believe he is over there..." Suspense is broken and my player now have a shot at metagaming. The more I think of it, the more I'm in favor of leaving things as is. You are absolutely right whuaguy, if a player want to be skillful in gun he will put more points into whatever his character need to be good in gun, even if you create a new attribute/new set of rules you will have the same problem. Some players will want their character to be proficient at gun. My solutions for the whole problem would be: 1) Carefully help your players build their characters. Veto their fighting ability and fix campaign limits (ex: max. fighting skill level 15; max. DX 14). It's your game, you set the rules. 2) Sometimes ask for a check based on a different attribute. 3) Give high penalties to a check that is supposed to be difficult. Gun checks have speed/range and size penalty... but also have difficulty like any other check. An impossible shot will have -10 on top of speed/range/size penalty. 4) Buy GURPS Tactical Shooting. If guns are so important to your games chances are you may benefit from such a book. Note: There's no more IQ bonus for Gun skill in 4th.
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G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on Apr 3, 2012 0:10:33 GMT -8
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I am going to leave GURPS the way it is for the most part, but will possibly make a home-brewed system that is very closely based on the Fallout Gamebryo engine (R). This has lots of different abilities which all have skills tied to them. Changing GURPS was just a thought, it is still by far my favorite system.
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